is 1000 miles too early to change the factory fill

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Originally Posted By: Johnny248
There is no way I am going to run the FF for 8000 miles as suggested.

See what I mean? You've got your preconceived notions, just like most of us here on BITOG. None of it is based on fact. You're looking for reassurance that changing FF at 1K miles is fine. Just do it already and be done with it.
smile.gif
 
The only thing that can hurt that hemi is an easy break in. Get on it and often.

Change the oil whenever you like. But don't imagine it makes for a longer lasting motor. That's completely unproven.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
It has been measured in the labs. Published in the SAE literature.


citation???


The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear. A.K. Gangopadhyay, et. al. SAE Technical Paper 2007-01-4133. November 2007.

Here's the abstract:
Code:
Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard engine

dynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludge and

varnish formation tendencies, and fuel efficiency among several other

performance attributes before they are approved for use in customer engines.

However, these performance attributes are measured at the end of tests and

therefore, do not provide any information on how the properties have changed

during the tests. In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil

samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-

15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate

than those of fresh oils. It was also observed that the composition of the

tribochemical films formed was quite different on the surface tested with the

drain oils from those formed with fresh oils. The objective of this investigation is

to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain

intervals. A fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were

collected at various drain intervals from 3000 miles to 15000 miles. As in the

previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower

friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were

observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000

mile drain interval. The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface

with the 3000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12000 mile

drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler for achieving

longer drain interval although several other factors must to be considered.
 
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Originally Posted By: Johnny248
Originally Posted By: qdeezie
There's a valid argument to both sides of it, but my opinion is you should go by the factory recommended OCI. I don't believe in changing it early.


There is no way I am going to run the FF for 8000 miles as suggested. Now, that being said, once change the oil and put what I want into the engine, I'll run it the 8000 miles as per the olm suggestion.

BTW, this is my new 2011 Ram 1500 4x4 5.7L Hemi


I have had 2 HEMI Rams, a 2004 and a 2008. Now the 5.7L in those engines was an earlier model but the one in your 2011 is still pretty much the same thing. I personally am a believer in changing the FF early. Always have and always will. On both the 04 and 08 the FF was dumped by 1500 miles with regular OCI's started at 5K and then every 5K after. Neither engine( nor any other engine I have dumped the FF early on )used any measurable oil between OC's.
 
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The test is indeed interesting, but no mention is made on the the oil that was tested (presumably an dino with a typical add' pac') and whether the same effect would be acheived with synthetic oils with different anti wear add' pac's such as moly and in what concentrations, etc.
The test also doesn't go into the reason for the observation.
For example, the fact that the TBN level drops with mileage thereby reducing the competition with the AW additives to effectively plate on the valve train could be one explanation, but the study doesn't go into that.
 
In my opinion 1K miles is too soon. I think ~ 2,500 is a good minimum number. Remember that a good oil filter is there to protect and in addition: manufactures use assembly lubricants and probably oil additives to assist and protect during the break-in period. We don't want to flush them out too soon before they have served the purpose. Ed
 
They tested three different oils:
1) RO207 - a GF-3 quality 5W20 oil with 0.10% P
2) RO243 - a GF-4 quality 5W20 oil with 0.08% P
3) RO208 - a GF-4 quality 5W20 oil with 0.05% P

Since the authors were employed by Ford and ConocoPhillips, I presume these oils are similar to, if not identical with, Motorcraft 5W20 oils available in 2007.

The RO243 oil contains generally the same amount of ZDDP as current GF-4/GF-5 oils.

When this oil was fresh, the wear rate was 0.60 nanometers (nm) per hour.

The 3000 and 5000 mile oil showed wear rates of 0.07 and 0.09 nm per hour, respectively.

The lowest wear rate was shown by the 7500 mile oil, with a wear rate of less than 0.02 nm per hour. The 7500 mile oil had a TBN of 4.6 (starting TBN = 7.6).
 
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Originally Posted By: Eddie
In my opinion 1K miles is too soon. I think ~ 2,500 is a good minimum number. Remember that a good oil filter is there to protect and in addition: manufactures use assembly lubricants and probably oil additives to assist and protect during the break-in period. We don't want to flush them out too soon before they have served the purpose. Ed


Chrysler does not use any special additives in the FF oil on the 5.7L.
 
Nonsense.

There are no explanations, just proposed results. Now that's an informative scientific paper. Even when something is outright incorrect, or in a dynamic environment, we are supposed to believe the surface result?

Who is A.K. Gangopadhyay? Is he a mechanical engineer with 20+ years experience in researching internal combustion engies? No, he has no lubrication or engine design experience except with this paper from what I can tell.
 
Originally Posted By: Johnny248
Just looking for opinions on changing the new factory fill at about 1000 miles?


I would go with the 1,000 mile first change. It is definately a step to protect your investment, and cant hurt.

On my wifes newest vehicle (GMC Acadia), I changed the oil at the first 1,000 & 3,000 miles (currently at 4,500 miles. These engines formerly had premature wear issues on the timing chains, why take chances.
 
I am going out on a limb here and say just follow the owners manual recomendation. Over the last 25 years I have had around 10 new vehicles, and every one went out to whatever the manual said. My last two Powerstrokes went to 7,500 mi.on the factory fill, and currently it has just under 140,000 mi. on it with great UOA's and no add oil is needed between OC's at 7,500 mi. intervals.
Wifes cars have been the same with no make-up oil ever needed between OCI's.

The decision is yours to make, you're the one that has spent/going to spend the money.

On the flip side my dad absolutely cringes when I buy a new vehicle, he has never let factory fill go over 1,000mi., I guess I live on the edge.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Nonsense.

There are no explanations, just proposed results. Now that's an informative scientific paper. Even when something is outright incorrect, or in a dynamic environment, we are supposed to believe the surface result?

Who is A.K. Gangopadhyay? Is he a mechanical engineer with 20+ years experience in researching internal combustion engies? No, he has no lubrication or engine design experience except with this paper from what I can tell.


While I appreciate your comments, it appears that you a) do not understand the syntax of citations and b) have not downloaded and read the entire paper. There are 14 pages of explanations and plenty of results; actual, not proposed.

Are you so biased that you think only mechanical engineers are capable of designing experiments to measure friction and wear? What about physicists? Do they know anything about friction and wear?

How do you know the results are "outright incorrect"? Is your name on the paper? Did you participate in the study? Have you conducted a similar study that produced conflicting results?

The complete author list on this paper consisted of contributors from Ford and ConocoPhillips.

From Ford: A.K. Gangopadthyay, R.O. Carter III, D. Uy, S.J. Simko, and M. Riley
From ConocoPhillips: C.B. Phillips and H. Gao.

It appears to me that you are throwing mud at a paper you haven't read because it conflicts with one of your pet beliefs.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
IMO depends upon the oil used.

To me, it is a "why not?" situaton. If your car doesnt use a special break-in oil, then why not change it early, get some fresh oil in there and get used to working on your car? If there is ever a time when there could be some junk in there, it is when the engine is new.

That said, if the oil is a specialty product, like the high Mo oils that Subaru and Honda use, then I'd change it by the book, as there is method in their madness.

I like to pull an early UOA if possible to help see what kind of oil is in there and if there is any early flag. It wont trend anything, but there are certain things you can look out for.


This is about as good general advice as can be given.
 
I would change it at 2500 miles and be done with it.Then just change at your regular time,whatever you decide that will be.
 
I changed my 2002 Toyota 3.4L Tacoma at 1000 miles. I have never burned a drop of oil in 130K + miles since. Each engine may be different, so YMMV.
 
I don't know, I see a lot of different opinions here. I am by far no oil expert but I have tried all different way and learn as I go. Personally, if the vehicle is my prize possession, I would change it out rather quick. Now as I watched others, I may not do it as quick as I have in the past but would not run the whole factory recommended OCI.

I have a 99 VW Cabrio from new. Those are known [censored] and use oil. I changed the oil the first time at about 400 miles I think. I ran conventional up until about 3500 (not sure if I did another change in between that time) then switched to synthetic. That car has not once used a drop of oil, so that theory mentioned before about causing oil burn is completely wrong! The car is still running fine and I have tried all kinds of different synthetic oils and now lately even dabbled with a few conventional oils. I bet that motor is spotless inside still. I did the same short change with a 98 Suburban and that thing is still chugging along today. However, a few other cars I have run up to 2500 miles on first change and they seemed to be fine also. I won't get into the motorcycle stuff in this form but those I surely change super fast. Oh yeah, and don't baby any vehicle for break-in...that is not needed either IMO.
 
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Originally Posted By: spasm3
i would change it at 20miles or when i got home, but thats just me.


That's not that outlandish.

When we dyno a motor, we change the oil before day 2 (day 1 usually only runs a few hours) and again when complete.
 
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