Is 0W-xx really necessary?

troy_heagy · May 20, 2003

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I don't see why anyone needs 0W-xx oil unless they live in Alaska. Also, I'm concerned about the wide viscosity range. In order to convert a SAE0 oil to a 0W-30, the manufacturers must be using a HUGE amount of VI modifiers. I don't like VIMs in my oil...fewer is better.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

Pablo · May 20, 2003

My thoughts? Do a search....this and 5W-20 must be #1 topics. Also read Bob's Topics.

Synthetic 0W-30's (are there many dino 0w's?) don't actually require much VI modifiers....certainly not as much pour point depressents as a dino 5W-30/40....

BTW there are some pretty good UOA's on 0W's...

troy_heagy · May 20, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:
My thoughts? Do a search....

How do you know I didn't?

JohnBrowning · May 20, 2003

For about the last 7 years the low viscosity crowd has been slowly gaining steam. I am the product of old school thinking and will proably stay that way until their is enough definative proof to undo 100 year of thicker is better. I think that the API's Viscosity and temp. chart was right on target for dino oils. I still remember the 20W20 and 5W20 day. I can remeber that their was not an Opel or GM vechile on the planet that was not burning oil, sludgeing up and just wearing out in wel under 100,000 miles with these oils. While I know that synthetics change things considerbly I still do not see where a 0W20 or 0W30 does anything that a synthetic 5W30 or 10W30 does not already do. WHat does M1 0W40 do that Delvac 1 5W40 does not do. I doubt that anyone on this board has ever or will ever need to start his Toyota Corolla or his PSD at -84F.

[ May 20, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]

buster · May 20, 2003

quote:

I doubt that anyone on this board has ever or will ever need to start his Toyota Corolla or his PSD at -84F.

Well, this winter I started my 2001 Corolla (which I hope to get rid of by year's end) at -15F in Ithaca, NY. I'd rather have a 0w in temps like this because the oil is thinner and will flow faster at start up. If most engine wear occurs at start up, then a 0w is beneficial in the cold. BTW, my car now has 122,000 miles on it in 2.5 years of driving. Toyota's are built like freakin tanks.

[ May 20, 2003, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

troy_heagy · May 20, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
I still do not see where a...0W30 does anything that a synthetic 5W30 or 10W30 does not already do.

Exactly. However 0W-30 does have more Viscosity Modifiers in it, and IMHO that's bad.

JohnBrowning · May 20, 2003

buster -15 is nothing. Any 100% synthetic 10W30 or 5W40 can easily do -15.

rob-the-oil-nut · May 20, 2003

I, too, used to think thicker is better but only at full operating temperature.
I, too, do not like VIMs and gimmicky additives (I refer to a certain oil (company is well known and starts with a C, calls their stuff synthetic) as liquid Crayon (apologies to Crayola)
Despite running RedLine 5W30 I continue to fret about cold weather pumpability and flow rate in winter. Stay in Winnipeg for a January and you will see what I mean.
I hasten to add that the first # (0 or 5) is seldom related to pour point or borderline pumpability. For instance, as I recall an Amsoil 20W50 flows better at -20 than most dino 5W30's (you get the idea)
You raised two good arguements agains 0-w-Xx:
1) The only good VIM is the stuff you use on kitchen counters

(no arguement there really)
2) it's more than what you need.
My good man, "more than what I need" and related phenomenon like "needlessly high quality" are what turns me on. I suspect others in this glorious OCD club we call BITOG would agree as well.
Cheers!

labman · May 20, 2003

It took me a while to switch to the 5W-30 from the 10W-30 Pennzoil. I had avoided the 10W-40 on the basis that the less additives the better. Now, if the engine manages to start, the oil may not pump, but on the other hand, it may not be forced out of the clearance. Of course up by the rings, the oil may thin out quicker than down at the oil filter or oil pump. At least by the time I buy something calling for less than 5W-30, there should be more history on it.

Spector · May 20, 2003

I went to a 0W30 to see if it made any difference in a piston slap I have on one car. Guess I should have gone the other way with a heavier oil as I will attempting to get oil to the upper components quicker whereas a heavier oil is better for the slap issue. I live in a mild climate but now that I have used the 0W for over two years now I am sticking with it. The wear numbers are about the same if not slightly better then the 10W I used before but it has a slighlty better additive package and seems to hold up better over the one year OCI that I use on this car (8-10,000 miles/year). I would suggest it especially in the Northeast or Midwest or places that get cold winters. I run it year round obviously with summers up to 100 degrees.

With the synthetics I do not believe the VI is much of an issue as with dino.

[ May 21, 2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Spector ]

troy_heagy · May 20, 2003

I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of Viscosity Index Modifiers. IMHO, 0W-30 uses more of them, and that's bad. (More additives = less oil = less lubrication.)

Am I wrong to think that way?

G-MAN · May 20, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by troy_heagy:
I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of Viscosity Index Modifiers. IMHO, 0W-30 uses more of them, and that's bad. (More additives = less oil = less lubrication.)

Am I wrong to think that way?

Viscosity index is the property of the natural viscosity index of the base oil blend and any added VI modifiers. If the natural VI of the base oil blend is high enough, little or no VI modifier needs to be added to achieve the desired vis spread. Most 0wXX oils use PAO and ester base oils that have very high natural VIs. So, in fact, the 0w30 may have LESS VI modifier than is used in other grades.

Pablo · May 20, 2003

Troy, above I wrote:

quote:

Synthetic 0W-30's (are there many dino 0w's?) don't actually require much VI modifiers....certainly not as much pour point depressents as a dino 5W-30/40....

Not sure why you didn't read this. G-man said basically the same thing in a much more eloquent mannner.

I think your concerns are more valid on the other end of the viscosity spectrum, AND when concentrating on a heavier petroleum oil using a pour point depressant to acheive a lower SAE "w" rating.

Dr. T · May 21, 2003

I think that 0-30's for eg. use a 'thinner' base oil than 5-30's or 10-30's and this will in turn, result in a more volatile oil and quicker oil degredation...same for 5-20's....addatives notwithstanding.

Spector · May 21, 2003

Take a look at the analysis on the Amsoil 0W30 at about 5000 miles on the oil. Nice results.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000520

Patman · May 21, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by mph:

quote:

Originally posted by williar:
Relative to the normal engine operating temperature of above 200 degrees F., an engine is "cold" even if it hasn't been operated for a day and it's 100 degrees F. outside. The whole idea behind using 0Wx oils is not necessarily for freezing winter days, but for startup under normal conditions.

Click to expand...

At 100 F, Mobil 1 0W-30 is just as thick as Mobil 1 5W-30 (56 cSt @ 40 C). Mobil 1 10W-30 is slightly thicker (62 cSt).

And to further add confusion to things, the 0w30 Castrol SLX has a viscosity of 68.5 cst at 40c, so it's actually thicker than most 10w30 oils on a hot summer day when you first start it up.

rob-the-oil-nut · May 21, 2003

Clarification, please:
Williar, you said "Understand that it may take a half-hour for the oil to reach normal operating temperature." Really? You mean like on a bitter winter day?
G-Man II said "So, in fact, the 0w30 may have LESS VI modifier than is used in other grades" Good point! As is Patman's: "it's actually thicker than most 10w30 oils on a hot summer day"
which is what I've been ticked about for some time. Nuff said, I hope.

williar · May 21, 2003

Relative to the normal engine operating temperature of above 200 degrees F., an engine is "cold" even if it hasn't been operated for a day and it's 100 degrees F. outside. The whole idea behind using 0Wx oils is not necessarily for freezing winter days, but for startup under normal conditions. The more better the lubrication during warmup, the less wear, crankcase deposits, and pollution. Understand that it may take a half-hour for the oil to reach normal operating temperature. Until it does, your engine needs the flow characteristics of a lighter oil.

mph · May 21, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by williar:
Relative to the normal engine operating temperature of above 200 degrees F., an engine is "cold" even if it hasn't been operated for a day and it's 100 degrees F. outside. The whole idea behind using 0Wx oils is not necessarily for freezing winter days, but for startup under normal conditions.

At 100 F, Mobil 1 0W-30 is just as thick as Mobil 1 5W-30 (56 cSt @ 40 C). Mobil 1 10W-30 is slightly thicker (62 cSt).

got boost? · May 21, 2003

the truth is that 99% of people are fine to use any of the oils discussed. most people do not start their vehicle at -50°F and most don't run their engine hard at high temps. I use 10W30 M1 because I run long drain intervals, and I think it protects better than 0w or 5w M1 slightly higher vis. at startup it takes only a fraction of a second for the oiling system to pressurize fully - regardless of the oil weight (at normal temps ie >0°F).

[ May 21, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: got boost? ]

Is 0W-xx really necessary?

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