Iraqi prisoner "abuse" issue

[J]

I know this issue has been discussed to death,
but ...

Prison guards abuse prisoners both here and
everywhere else. These idiots were dumb enough
to document their abuse.

In this day and age, soldiers are not necessarily
philosopher kings envisioned by Plato.

I believe that this will cause a lot more trouble
for U.S. in Iraq because the abuser was a woman.

The only thing that surprises me about this
whole thing is that the abusers documented their
abuse.

Prisoner abuse happens.

Cheers,

Jae

 

[Terry]

Jae, having photo documentation of the mental/shame torture these guys suffered by the Western Whores of the infidels is going to light up the fundamentalists looking for a reason to go die for Allah like a blue light special at KMART.

Note that none of them came to fight Saddam and his secular infidels and the REAL torture and violence inflicted for 30 years.

We climbed into a hornets nest and better be prepared to kill our way out. Thats all that will be understood.


Not good

 

[J]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:
Jae, having photo documentation of the mental/shame torture these guys suffered by the Western Whores of the infidels is going to light up the fundamentalists looking for a reason to go die for Allah like a blue light special at KMART.

Note that none of them came to fight Saddam and his secular infidels and the REAL torture and violence inflicted for 30 years.

We climbed into a hornets nest and better be prepared to kill our way out. Thats all that will be understood.


Not good

---

And you know what? The American public really
don't give a %$#@

The economy is strong and the job market is
finally picking up.

Bush will win in a land-slide.

Cheers,

Jae

 

[Mystic]

The prisoner abuse by American soldiers of Iraqi prisoners in Iraq sickens me. In my opinion these people who abused the prisoners received some kind of encouragement to 'soften' the prisoners for questioning. And these soldiers actually were bold enough to document using photography what they had done. Exactly what did they think was going to happen if the pictures got out? Did they think they were going to get medals?

But notice also the worldwide outcry over what Americans (a few Americans) did to Iraqi prisoners. It was wrong what these soldiers did, but when American soldiers do something like this there is screaming to the heavens. But I guess it was okay for Saddam Hussein and his sons to engage in this sort of stuff over a period of decades. And notice the limited world outcry over what was done to the bodies of American soldiers in Iraq and elsewhere. The usual double standard. Exactly how many times does President Bush and members of his administration have to apologize?

 

[Terry]

What our interogators do to soften up the prisoner is a walk in the park compared to many that are crying foul on the US. Its wrong what you see but let me tell you if you could see what Israel,Serbia,Iraq(Bathist),N Korea,China,Russia, and on and on do to their prisoners of interest , appalled and anti american would be the least of your worries.

People from the developed West, especially Americans are so soft,fat,insulated, and naive. Easier that way.

[ May 09, 2004, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]

 

[1sttruck]

This incident hasn't played out yet, in fact Rumsfield has stated that the worse has yet to be released, which evidently includes rape and murder. One comment that seemed to sum it up is that if Osama had hired a Madison avenue firm to put together an ad campaign for recruiting terrorists, they couldn't have done any better than the image with the US female soldier holding the leash on a naked Iraqi prisoner. Prior to this incident, which is evidently something that has been going on since the invasion, it's hard to remember when the US has been more detested in the international community.

 

[Eiron]

What I don't understand is, the US is apologizing out the wazoo for this embarrasment. It's to the point where the constant apologizing is becoming an embarrasment. But wait; how many fraternities force prospective recruits to perform similar activities? Weren't these prisoners simply put thru a disgusting, unpleasant, humiliating experience?

Yes, it was wrong. Yes, we should be ashamed of the frat-house antics exhibited by our military representatives. But now, we've even seen interviews with ex-prisoners telling their tales of woe, right? And yet, they're ex-prisoners! They're now free to live the rest of their lives! It's not as if these people were burned to death & dragged thru the streets & hung from a bridge or anything.

 

[GSV]

Imprison the troops who did this and their commanders. Give them dishonorable discharges.

Now, I will think about wringing my hands about this
when these diaperheads stop packing explosives onto the backs of children and teenagers and loading them onto busses and city streets. I'll want to hear President Bush apologize one more time when I hear the first one of these barbarians apologize for flying planes loaded with civilians into buildings loaded with civilians.

I'll give more of a rats *** for how humiliated these Iraquis felt when they turn over the scumbags who mutilate the bodies of dead Americans and hang them from bridges.

Until then excuse me if I don't wet my bed over this. If you don't like it go pound sand where the sun doesn't shine.

 

[sub_zero]

These alleged abuses are, if true completely and totally intolerable. This is evidenced by the apologies given at the highest level.

It gives the preception that there is a loss of control. The people dipicted in the pictures are the wrong people for this kind of work regardless if they were ordered to or not. Nobody who understands the sensitive nature and techniques of coercive interrogation would ever take "holiday shots" of this stuff. If you want to "soften" someone up it must be well planned, this was not. The idea, at least many years ago was to trigger psychological regression in a coercive interrogation. Laughing and Joking - keeping people together doesn't start the process.

This is a precarious situation, powerful information that the admistration doesn't even dare to deny. The full-on PR campaign, the President's statement and Rumsfelds' statement that there is worse to be seen tells alot about how serious this is. This issue will divide partisan lines and wreck international condemnation. It is serious. The pretext for war was weak at best. Now that it can be documented; the war is not being fought well; this will apply very direct pressure to the exceutive leadership it is very, very embarassing to them.

This war has been sold to the elite and now that their is evidence that it is not fought to their standard, this will be damaging and offer an opportunity for ridicule. This is a most dire situation for a politician.

 

[Shannow]

My take.

After the WMD issue was dropped, we (the coallition) started using the liberation as the reason for the war.

We put ourselves on a pedestal, telling the world of a society who were dragged out of their homes for speaking against their ruler, lived in palaces, while they starved, and tortured killed prisoners.

We have a moral obligation to stay on top of the pedestal, and demonstrate to these people that their world has changed.

More of what they previously had is not going to work.

All arguments about "what they did/would have done to our guys" is pathetic, when we are supposed to be on the pedestal demonstrating what's right.

[ May 09, 2004, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: Shannow ]

 

[1sttruck]

Even the military is starting to speak up, see below. MSNBC doesn't require registration like the Washington Post does.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4934116/

 

[like a rock]

The military police company that is responsible for this is located only 60 miles from here. I also work with one of the members and can find it hard to believe they would be involved. But this is really a shame, a embarasment to our local area.

By the way it was stated that George W. Would win in a land slide- Not with gas prices now hovering around 2.00 bucks a gallon. The arab world is goning to stick us any way possibe.

 

[Durrr]

The reason pictures were taken were as a form of "blackmail" of these prisoners to get them to talk. The plain and simple fact is that every method used except the soddomizing of the prisoners with a broomstick etc and the rape instances were not that bad. I mean, throwing cold water on a prisoner? OMG, what are we going to DO! I do agree that the rape/sexual stuff was way the **** out of line, and those responsible should be punished, however, the rest of it does not deserve this kind of attention. Sleep deprivation, using Britney Spears to keep someone awake for days, Sodium Penathol, all of these are pretty humane ways to extract information (although, Britney Spears is kinda cruel

). The biggest mistake made in this ordeal however, was the President apologizing to the Arab world, wayyyy wrong move. Let our actions do the apologizing.

 

[needtoknow]

From what I've been hearing the sexual/********** abuse was a prescribed method to get (Iraqi)prisoners to talk as the muslim world takes this as very shameful. But that's only the part of it. The entire military report on this issue can be read on www.npr.org under Iraqi prisoner abuse. I do agree with Shannow that we put ouselves on a pedestal to justify our actions then when we don't live up to our own billing we make excuses to say it's ok for us. I don't think the "indignation" of the Muslim World is to be taken too seriously, in a moral sense, as they are still in the Dark Ages when it comes to acceptance and use of torture. Given all of the Bush Administration's mistakes in this war of choice don't you think it was pure stupidity to do something like this. The Red Cross was complaining since January on this issue and told the military so. As for those people that don't care about this issue because they feel it won't hurt Bush's election chances, would those people be "good Christians" with high moral standards?

 

[Pitbull]

This is a leadership failure and GW has to step up and take responsiblity. GW will be out, I just wish we had someone exceptional to replace him with. Why in a country as great as America can't we attract leaders that we would be proud to follow???

 

[Durrr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pitbull:
This is a leadership failure and GW has to step up and take responsiblity. GW will be out, I just wish we had someone exceptional to replace him with. Why in a country as great as America can't we attract leaders that we would be proud to follow???

---

He didn't even know it was going on. Rummy kept it under wraps for a reason, Plausable Deniability. That way, the Pres. wouldn't take the hit, but he would instead. If you blame the President for a few reservists in Iraq doing some stuff to some prisoners, thats nothing short of an idologically driven arguement

 

[Pablo]

All we need to say is:

a) this was the action of a few and it won't happen again, we are sickened to the point of vomiting, but we will not beat up our own non-involved people.
b) the people in prison are criminals, and what did they expect Sesame Street and honey cakes?
c) where is the world outrage about REAL prisoner abuse in almost ALL Muslim countries?

End of conversation.

The people trying to get political mileage out of this should be ashamed as should the perps. Sorry, this is NOT the action of Christians, so that dog is dead at birth.....

 

[Matt89]

IMO the biggest mistake we make is putting ourselves on a pedestal to begin with.

War is ugly business. It's sad that we (the human race) never seem to tire of it. I bet that if the long line of dead soldiers from Troy, Gettysburg, Verdun, Leningrad, Normandy, Iwo Jima to Iraq could talk they'd say "Haven't you learned anything yet? Did we die for nothing?".

Peace rant over. I don't think we're capable of it.

 

[DJ]

On another board I am a memeber of we have several members who are in the middle east, and at least one has spoken up about the fact that while what has happened is bad it is not nearly as bad as what unsed to occur there and what still occurs all over the world not just in the middle east. I hate to say it but there are degrees of wrong and this isn't as terrible as it could be, not by a long shot. Now if you were finding mass graves filled since the ocupation started then you could say it is bad but that isn't the case at all.
Punish those responsible and leave the high level guys out of it, now if you have a pic of one of our Washington guys holding a leash then you can hold them personally responsible, but again that just isn't the case.

When I make a mistake at work I am resoponsible, nobody tries to blame the owner of the company, and that is exactly how I see all this it is as if when I screw up a guy I have only met a few times should get the blame, NO.

 

[Pitbull]

quote:

---

Originally posted by PRRPILL:
The abuse of the prisoners has given the war detractors a bone to chew on. Let's face it it was deplorable and very stupid. Look at the idiots in the pictures. But why are we,(USA) trying to destroy our country because of it. War is **** . I bet a whole bunch of dead guys would be only too happy to have that humiliation, as long as they could come back to life. The politicising of the war and now the abuses, is the real pity. Every time some politician apologises, castigates and calls for a firing,it encourages our enemies. I would like to see a graph of the violence and our dead starting from before the election started. I think it would show exactly how our politices is killing our guys. All the grandstanding and vomit from politicians and their allies in the press should stop. When we need our soldiers in the future, this BS will make good people pause, before they volunteer. Pity.

---

Your full of confused thoughts. Have you ever put on a uniform to serve your country?? When your fighting a war you are fighting for the guys next to you. You could careless about what the press or politicians are saying. Your trying to keep your butt and your buddies butt alive and your trying to make the enemy die for their country. You are also there representing your country. You are suppose to follow the rules of prisoner treatment. These soldiers that committed these acts of a coward are responsible for their behavior also the command that did not control, command and lead these soldiers are also responsible and I also believe it will come out that the Bush administration gave tasaid permission to this type of behavior in the direction they gave to the commanders of this war and their lack of moral leadership. It is just starting to come out and I am sure you will find that Rummy is going to be gone and Bush will not be re-elected. I personally made a mistake last time by voting for Bush I will not repeat that mistake. By the way I know a few things about war. USMC 1968-1971 Semper Fi.