Interesting FRAM Video
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I am surprised FRAM went and used so many different brands in their video. Ussualy videos direct from manufactures try to keep it to minimum.
Bold move, I personaly never had any problems with them but after using K&N I cant go back.
My Castrol GTX is still almost gold after 2,000 miles. It turned dark after 1000 before using fram which I been using for past 2 years.
Bold move, I personaly never had any problems with them but after using K&N I cant go back.
My Castrol GTX is still almost gold after 2,000 miles. It turned dark after 1000 before using fram which I been using for past 2 years.
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Actually the colour of your GTX has very little to do with the use of a cheap Fram oil filter. If it went black quickly last time it was just doings its job of removing some sludge and keeping the finer carbon particles in suspension. That oil change might have removed most of the sludge and now your engine is cleaner the new oil retains its Gold colour longer.
Not sure what oil filter you used on the previous oil change, BUT I doubt very much if it performed worse than a Fram, unless it was an older model WIX. I never use any kind of filter unless it says made in Germany or is from the manufacturer. In some ways it's more important than using a good oil.
Not sure what oil filter you used on the previous oil change, BUT I doubt very much if it performed worse than a Fram, unless it was an older model WIX. I never use any kind of filter unless it says made in Germany or is from the manufacturer. In some ways it's more important than using a good oil.
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Don't care, I've seen the insoluble UOAs and collapsed cut-opens.
Originally Posted By: Voltmaster
My Castrol GTX is still almost gold after 2,000 miles. It turned dark after 1000 before using fram which I been using for past 2 years.
Right, because filters can clean oil to the point of changing the color and "dark oil" is dirty oil.
My Castrol GTX is still almost gold after 2,000 miles. It turned dark after 1000 before using fram which I been using for past 2 years.
Right, because filters can clean oil to the point of changing the color and "dark oil" is dirty oil.
Been Posted before.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2670418
lets not go 8 pages again
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2670418
lets not go 8 pages again
In the video, he holds up a Toyota filter and says it doesn't use any end caps. What he didn't say is that each pleat is glued together at the ends to seal the ends and prevent dirty oil from getting past the media. I use to use Toyota filters, and it seemed the pleats were sealed OK, but all it takes is on to not be sealed to have a dirty oil leak. Plus the data from river_rat's study, and the ISO testing published by Amsoil showed the Toyota filters are very inefficient (51% @ 20 microns ... very bad IMO).
IMO, the end caps on the FRAM orange can are just too thin. I see nothing wrong with a "fiber"/non-metal end cap IF it is thick enough to be stiff enough to not flex and distort with use.
IMO, FRAM could improve the orange can's reputation, and probably reliability, if they made the end caps about twice as thick as they currently are.
IMO, the end caps on the FRAM orange can are just too thin. I see nothing wrong with a "fiber"/non-metal end cap IF it is thick enough to be stiff enough to not flex and distort with use.
IMO, FRAM could improve the orange can's reputation, and probably reliability, if they made the end caps about twice as thick as they currently are.
The biggest problem I've seen with Fram Mainly with the OCOD and TG oil filters is with poor Quality Control. I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette with them, and luckily I didn't pull the trigger this time by cutting the TG I had instead of putting it on my truck, because what I saw was a bad filter.
Here is the Thread I posted:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758224#Post2758224
Here is the Thread I posted:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758224#Post2758224
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
In the video, he holds up a Toyota filter and says it doesn't use any end caps. What he didn't say is that each pleat is glued together at the ends to seal the ends and prevent dirty oil from getting past the media. I use to use Toyota filters, and it seemed the pleats were sealed OK, but all it takes is on to not be sealed to have a dirty oil leak. Plus the data from river_rat's study, and the ISO testing published by Amsoil showed the Toyota filters are very inefficient (51% @ 20 microns ... very bad IMO).
IMO, the end caps on the FRAM orange can are just too thin. I see nothing wrong with a "fiber"/non-metal end cap IF it is thick enough to be stiff enough to not flex and distort with use.
IMO, FRAM could improve the orange can's reputation, and probably reliability, if they made the end caps about twice as thick as they currently are.
Interesting perspective. I'm not pro or anti FRAM, but there are other videos that talk to the amount of testing they do.
You have an opinion, and you're obviously entitled to it, that the end caps are too thin. And I understand your thinking which I believe is that if it flexes too much, it could come apart from the pleats.
But on the other hand, they do seem to do the testing scientifically and have established that it is engineered to meet or exceed OEM standard. There was another video when they went 200 non stop hours with oil at 275f. The oil coked up but the end caps were fine. The nitrile ADBV had gone brittle though. But the point was that it performed within the usage and temperature parameters.
To me this is similar to the engineering that a car manufacturer goes to establishing whether the oci is 3000 miles or 5000 miles. If they say it's 5000 miles based on oil meeting a particular spec, but you use the wrong oil, and you suffer some sort of engine damage, then it's not the oil that was poorly designed. It was your application of it.
If a FRAM is used beyond the mileage or if the pressures or temperatures are outside design parameters of the vehicle, then the FRAM is not at fault.
However, the major difference is that there may be less redundancy in a FRAM orange can than in other filters. So if something does operate outside of expectations, there is more chance of something going wrong with a FRAM.
The filter seems to be a potentially more critical point of failure, so in that case, you are buying extra insurance if you use a filter that is engineered to higher tolerances than a FRAM.
One thing that is interesting to me is that there is something to the idea that fibre bonds to fibre more strongly than fibre to metal. And if the end caps are of a similar strength to the filter material, then these 2 facts together do suggest a robust design.
I have always wondered what strength filter material must have in order to withstand the oil heat and pressure so this would be a point of failure in all filters. Secondly, all filters use glue to seal themselves somewhere. Either to fibre end caps, to metal end caps, or, as in Toyota's case, filter material to filter material. So the glue would seem to be the second point of failure.
So I think evaluations of filter integrity might be well served by looking at many different elements of the filter not just fibre end caps.
Again, I am not pro or anti FRAM. Indeed I don't use them primarily because I like the idea of getting 99.9% efficiency with PureOne in my Ford and go with OEM cartridges on my German cars.
In the video, he holds up a Toyota filter and says it doesn't use any end caps. What he didn't say is that each pleat is glued together at the ends to seal the ends and prevent dirty oil from getting past the media. I use to use Toyota filters, and it seemed the pleats were sealed OK, but all it takes is on to not be sealed to have a dirty oil leak. Plus the data from river_rat's study, and the ISO testing published by Amsoil showed the Toyota filters are very inefficient (51% @ 20 microns ... very bad IMO).
IMO, the end caps on the FRAM orange can are just too thin. I see nothing wrong with a "fiber"/non-metal end cap IF it is thick enough to be stiff enough to not flex and distort with use.
IMO, FRAM could improve the orange can's reputation, and probably reliability, if they made the end caps about twice as thick as they currently are.
Interesting perspective. I'm not pro or anti FRAM, but there are other videos that talk to the amount of testing they do.
You have an opinion, and you're obviously entitled to it, that the end caps are too thin. And I understand your thinking which I believe is that if it flexes too much, it could come apart from the pleats.
But on the other hand, they do seem to do the testing scientifically and have established that it is engineered to meet or exceed OEM standard. There was another video when they went 200 non stop hours with oil at 275f. The oil coked up but the end caps were fine. The nitrile ADBV had gone brittle though. But the point was that it performed within the usage and temperature parameters.
To me this is similar to the engineering that a car manufacturer goes to establishing whether the oci is 3000 miles or 5000 miles. If they say it's 5000 miles based on oil meeting a particular spec, but you use the wrong oil, and you suffer some sort of engine damage, then it's not the oil that was poorly designed. It was your application of it.
If a FRAM is used beyond the mileage or if the pressures or temperatures are outside design parameters of the vehicle, then the FRAM is not at fault.
However, the major difference is that there may be less redundancy in a FRAM orange can than in other filters. So if something does operate outside of expectations, there is more chance of something going wrong with a FRAM.
The filter seems to be a potentially more critical point of failure, so in that case, you are buying extra insurance if you use a filter that is engineered to higher tolerances than a FRAM.
One thing that is interesting to me is that there is something to the idea that fibre bonds to fibre more strongly than fibre to metal. And if the end caps are of a similar strength to the filter material, then these 2 facts together do suggest a robust design.
I have always wondered what strength filter material must have in order to withstand the oil heat and pressure so this would be a point of failure in all filters. Secondly, all filters use glue to seal themselves somewhere. Either to fibre end caps, to metal end caps, or, as in Toyota's case, filter material to filter material. So the glue would seem to be the second point of failure.
So I think evaluations of filter integrity might be well served by looking at many different elements of the filter not just fibre end caps.
Again, I am not pro or anti FRAM. Indeed I don't use them primarily because I like the idea of getting 99.9% efficiency with PureOne in my Ford and go with OEM cartridges on my German cars.
Originally Posted By: DirtRacer53
The biggest problem I've seen with Fram Mainly with the OCOD and TG oil filters is with poor Quality Control. I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette with them, and luckily I didn't pull the trigger this time by cutting the TG I had instead of putting it on my truck, because what I saw was a bad filter.
Here is the Thread I posted:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758224#Post2758224
Yes I agree. I think there is design, and then there is quality of manufacture.
The FRAM design might be completely valid and superior, but their manufacturing will not be as precise as say Toyota's. We don't hear of any failure issues with Toyota filters even though sealing filter medium with glue and no end caps would seem to be a less robust design.
(On the other hand, perhaps the poor efficiency rating is due to poor sealing and not the filter medium. Thoughts anyone?)
The biggest problem I've seen with Fram Mainly with the OCOD and TG oil filters is with poor Quality Control. I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette with them, and luckily I didn't pull the trigger this time by cutting the TG I had instead of putting it on my truck, because what I saw was a bad filter.
Here is the Thread I posted:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758224#Post2758224
Yes I agree. I think there is design, and then there is quality of manufacture.
The FRAM design might be completely valid and superior, but their manufacturing will not be as precise as say Toyota's. We don't hear of any failure issues with Toyota filters even though sealing filter medium with glue and no end caps would seem to be a less robust design.
(On the other hand, perhaps the poor efficiency rating is due to poor sealing and not the filter medium. Thoughts anyone?)
One thing this does prove is that Fram has been listening to all the bad press.
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
You have an opinion, and you're obviously entitled to it, that the end caps are too thin. And I understand your thinking which I believe is that if it flexes too much, it could come apart from the pleats.
It's more about how the end caps seal around the ends of the center core at the end caps - sealing surfaces for the ADBV and bypass valve assembly. End cap flexing and distortion during use could cause dirty oil to get past the filter media.
It just makes sense that if the fiber end cap is more thick/ridged, that flexing and distortion would not occur and give the filter more stability and reliability. That's my main point with end caps. Of course, with metal end caps you inherently get all of that.
You have an opinion, and you're obviously entitled to it, that the end caps are too thin. And I understand your thinking which I believe is that if it flexes too much, it could come apart from the pleats.
It's more about how the end caps seal around the ends of the center core at the end caps - sealing surfaces for the ADBV and bypass valve assembly. End cap flexing and distortion during use could cause dirty oil to get past the filter media.
It just makes sense that if the fiber end cap is more thick/ridged, that flexing and distortion would not occur and give the filter more stability and reliability. That's my main point with end caps. Of course, with metal end caps you inherently get all of that.
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
(On the other hand, perhaps the poor efficiency rating is due to poor sealing and not the filter medium. Thoughts anyone?)
Highly possible ... one or two pleats that are leaking during an ISO efficiency test could certainly show efficiency results of 51% @ 20 microns as was reported by Amsoil's independent ISO test for the Toyota (Denso) oil filter.
(On the other hand, perhaps the poor efficiency rating is due to poor sealing and not the filter medium. Thoughts anyone?)
Highly possible ... one or two pleats that are leaking during an ISO efficiency test could certainly show efficiency results of 51% @ 20 microns as was reported by Amsoil's independent ISO test for the Toyota (Denso) oil filter.
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
(On the other hand, perhaps the poor efficiency rating is due to poor sealing and not the filter medium. Thoughts anyone?)
Whose poor efficiency rating? Fram's? The recent Amsoil test I reference in the other post shows a factory Toyota filter at 51% @ 20um. A Honda PLM-A02 was 66.5%. Some Nissan factory filters use fiber endcaps.
Discussing possibilities as certainty, as in if the Toyota test badly, it HAD to be a failed filter... no way Toyota would make a filter that bad. Without more data and facts, "highly possible" is highly unlikely.
I disagree that endcap sealing is a pervasive issue with Fram. You can see problems along those lines with any filter potentially. If somebody can prove me wrong with more than a few anecdotal failures, I welcome the correction. I recently popped the endcap off a Pure One by hand. Does that make all P1s bad? Not in my book.
(On the other hand, perhaps the poor efficiency rating is due to poor sealing and not the filter medium. Thoughts anyone?)
Whose poor efficiency rating? Fram's? The recent Amsoil test I reference in the other post shows a factory Toyota filter at 51% @ 20um. A Honda PLM-A02 was 66.5%. Some Nissan factory filters use fiber endcaps.
Discussing possibilities as certainty, as in if the Toyota test badly, it HAD to be a failed filter... no way Toyota would make a filter that bad. Without more data and facts, "highly possible" is highly unlikely.
I disagree that endcap sealing is a pervasive issue with Fram. You can see problems along those lines with any filter potentially. If somebody can prove me wrong with more than a few anecdotal failures, I welcome the correction. I recently popped the endcap off a Pure One by hand. Does that make all P1s bad? Not in my book.
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
(On the other hand, perhaps the poor efficiency rating is due to poor sealing and not the filter medium. Thoughts anyone?)
Whose poor efficiency rating? Fram's? The recent Amsoil test I reference in the other post shows a factory Toyota filter at 51% @ 20um. A Honda PLM-A02 was 66.5%. Some Nissan factory filters use fiber endcaps.
I took it that MarkStock was talking about the Toyota filters in the Amsoil ISO testing.
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
(On the other hand, perhaps the poor efficiency rating is due to poor sealing and not the filter medium. Thoughts anyone?)
Whose poor efficiency rating? Fram's? The recent Amsoil test I reference in the other post shows a factory Toyota filter at 51% @ 20um. A Honda PLM-A02 was 66.5%. Some Nissan factory filters use fiber endcaps.
I took it that MarkStock was talking about the Toyota filters in the Amsoil ISO testing.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
A Honda PLM-A02 was 66.5%. Some Nissan factory filters use fiber endcaps.
That's pretty bad too IMO. Was that filter failing during the test too, along with the Toyota filter? What would the chances be that two out of 5 filters were leaking dirty oil in that Amsoil ISO test?
I'm wondering if Amsoil had more than one sample of each filter brand tested to prevent getting bad data from a defective filter or not (?).
A Honda PLM-A02 was 66.5%. Some Nissan factory filters use fiber endcaps.
That's pretty bad too IMO. Was that filter failing during the test too, along with the Toyota filter? What would the chances be that two out of 5 filters were leaking dirty oil in that Amsoil ISO test?
I'm wondering if Amsoil had more than one sample of each filter brand tested to prevent getting bad data from a defective filter or not (?).
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Discussing possibilities as certainty, as in if the Toyota test badly, it HAD to be a failed filter... no way Toyota would make a filter that bad. Without more data and facts, "highly possible" is highly unlikely.
Recall that the Toyota filter did horribly in river_rat's bench testing. Seems to correlate to some degree with the Amsoil ISO test data.
Discussing possibilities as certainty, as in if the Toyota test badly, it HAD to be a failed filter... no way Toyota would make a filter that bad. Without more data and facts, "highly possible" is highly unlikely.
Recall that the Toyota filter did horribly in river_rat's bench testing. Seems to correlate to some degree with the Amsoil ISO test data.
Originally Posted By: heavyhitter
Originally Posted By: Voltmaster
My Castrol GTX is still almost gold after 2,000 miles. It turned dark after 1000 before using fram which I been using for past 2 years.
Right, because filters can clean oil to the point of changing the color and "dark oil" is dirty oil.
UMM, it depends what's making it dirty, if you use a cheap oil with very little detergent or too high a viscosity range it will stay clean, whilst forming sludge or varnish in all the hidden smaller oil pathways.
Originally Posted By: Voltmaster
My Castrol GTX is still almost gold after 2,000 miles. It turned dark after 1000 before using fram which I been using for past 2 years.
Right, because filters can clean oil to the point of changing the color and "dark oil" is dirty oil.
UMM, it depends what's making it dirty, if you use a cheap oil with very little detergent or too high a viscosity range it will stay clean, whilst forming sludge or varnish in all the hidden smaller oil pathways.
Old.
Well, still, with all the hate they get for the fiber caps, you think they would just switch at this point.
I appreciate the video though. I suppose the fiber caps aren't SO bad. Maybe I won't feel so bad if I use an OEM Nissan one now. I always dreaded those because of the fiber caps, but Fram changed my mind, not on Fram, but on Nissan OEM (if I ever have to use them). ha.
I appreciate the video though. I suppose the fiber caps aren't SO bad. Maybe I won't feel so bad if I use an OEM Nissan one now. I always dreaded those because of the fiber caps, but Fram changed my mind, not on Fram, but on Nissan OEM (if I ever have to use them). ha.
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