In general what is the benefit of synthetic v dino

[rjacket]

I was looking at the specs for some oils and came to these conclusions for when to use synthetic: 1) Very cold starting 2) Can handle abnormally high temperatures 3) More likely to stay in grade But apart from that, it seems that the additive pack is what determines the positives or negatives of an oil whether they are synthetic or not. Do you agree? What about extended drain intervals? Is that a synthetic only characteristic?

 

[bepperb]

What about NOACK values which is the amount of oil that's burnt off and travels through the pcv system and back through the intake tract. On a direct injection engine where there is no fuel wash to the intake valves this is a concern. Obviously turbocharged engines benefit from your #2 greatly. But probably the most important factor is the higher viscosity index the base stocks have. Hybrid and short trip engines seldom reach full operating temperature so these engines see a huge benefit from oils that are thin at these lower temperatures, notably 0w-20 oils, which are [edit: currently] only possible with synthetics.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: rjacket

But apart from that, it seems that the additive pack is what determines the positives or negatives of an oil whether they are synthetic or not.

One answer. Sludge

 

[rjacket]

Originally Posted By: bepperb

What about NOACK values which is the amount of oil that's burnt off and travels through the pcv system and back through the intake tract. On a direct injection engine where there is no fuel wash to the intake valves this is a concern.

The reason I didn't bring this up was I saw an Amsoil comparison where the second best to them was Castrol GTX! There were other dinos with low NOACKs also.

Originally Posted By: bepperb

But probably the most important factor is the higher viscosity index the base stocks have. Hybrid and short trip engines seldom reach full operating temperature so these engines see a huge benefit from oils that are thin at these lower temperatures, notably 0w-20 oils, which are [edit: currently] only possible with synthetics.

That's covered in point 1!

 

[rjacket]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals

Originally Posted By: rjacket

But apart from that, it seems that the additive pack is what determines the positives or negatives of an oil whether they are synthetic or not.

One answer. Sludge

Really? Then why is PYB touted as a good way of removing and preventing sludge? It's the additives right?

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: rjacket

Originally Posted By: bepperb

What about NOACK values which is the amount of oil that's burnt off and travels through the pcv system and back through the intake tract. On a direct injection engine where there is no fuel wash to the intake valves this is a concern.

The reason I didn't bring this up was I saw an Amsoil comparison where the second best to them was Castrol GTX! There were other dinos with low NOACKs also.

Originally Posted By: bepperb

But probably the most important factor is the higher viscosity index the base stocks have. Hybrid and short trip engines seldom reach full operating temperature so these engines see a huge benefit from oils that are thin at these lower temperatures, notably 0w-20 oils, which are [edit: currently] only possible with synthetics.

That's covered in point 1!

It's more of an elaboration, since I believe he's implying that a synthetic will perform better in engines that don't reach operating temp often, which is in addition to the increased cold-start performance.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: rjacket

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals

Originally Posted By: rjacket

But apart from that, it seems that the additive pack is what determines the positives or negatives of an oil whether they are synthetic or not.

One answer. Sludge

Really? Then why is PYB touted as a good way of removing and preventing sludge? It's the additives right?

I think all the new SN oils are pretty good at that. But I dont see cars running syn all sludged up when they come in for repair, only dino's.

 

[bepperb]

Originally Posted By: bepperb

That's covered in point 1!

No. There is certainly an advantage to Synthetics for very cold starting. But another advantage to 0w-20 oils is in their much lower viscosity in the room temperature to lower-than-normal operating temps. For hybrid cars and cars driven only a few miles where the oil may never get even close to operating temp, but may never even fall below room temp, there is a decided advantage in fuel economy. Now this lower viscosity isn't specific to synthetic oils. But, in order to have this lower viscosity at these temps and still a serviceable viscosity at full temp you need a higher VI. Factor in long drains and a synthetic base stock is a requirement, since enough viscosity index improvers in a conventional to hit a VI of 180 would yield a sheer prone oil.

 

[rjacket]

Originally Posted By: bepperb

Originally Posted By: bepperb

That's covered in point 1!

No. There is certainly an advantage to Synthetics for very cold starting. But another advantage to 0w-20 oils is in their much lower viscosity in the room temperature to lower-than-normal operating temps. For hybrid cars and cars driven only a few miles where the oil may never get even close to operating temp, but may never even fall below room temp, there is a decided advantage in fuel economy. Now this lower viscosity isn't specific to synthetic oils. But, in order to have this lower viscosity at these temps and still a serviceable viscosity at full temp you need a higher VI. Factor in long drains and a synthetic base stock is a requirement, since enough viscosity index improvers in a conventional to hit a VI of 180 would yield a sheer prone oil.

Thanks. You're the second person in seperate threads who has said 0w vs 5w has benefits in a non freezing climate. On other threads, people have said that 0w is only beneficial at very cold temps. I mean when you see identical viscosities for 0w and 5w at 40c and 100c, that would make sense, but you are saying it's not so.

 

[rjacket]

Ok, here are some numbers comparing M1 0w20, M1 5w20 & PYB 5w20 (in that order) Viscosity 100c 8.7 8.9 8.4 Viscosity 40c 44.8 49.8 47.3 VI 173 160 150 HTHS 2.7 2.75 2.6 Pour Point Unknown -43c -39c Flash Point 224 (D92) 230c (D92) 229c (D93) Are they really significantly different in their real world implications?

 

[tig1]

Over the years I have found several reasons I think a quality synthetic is better than a dino oil. With that said the modern dino oils are far better than that of yester year. I like the longer OCI I can do with synthetic oil. I like the the way my engines stay very clean even with 200-350K on the engine. I like the satisfaction knowing I won't have to be concerned with ring coking. I like the way my engines perform in very cold temp starts. I like the satisfaction of knowing my engine oil holds up very well in very hot temps. I like the idea of doing less OCs. I like the idea of using less oil filters. I like the fact that even with some of my engines having high miles, they still run great when I am ready to sell the vehicle. Also here is XMs thoughts on the differance between dino and synthetic oil. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/What_Is_Synthetic_Motor_Oil.aspx

 

[rjacket]

Originally Posted By: tig1

Over the years I have found several reasons I think a quality synthetic is better than a dino oil. With that said the modern dino oils are far better than that of yester year. I like the longer OCI I can do with synthetic oil. I like the the way my engines stay very clean even with 200-350K on the engine. I like the satisfaction knowing I won't have to be concerned with ring coking. I like the way my engines perform in very cold temp starts. I like the satisfaction of knowing my engine oil holds up very well in very hot temps. I like the idea of doing less OCs. I like the idea of using less oil filters. I like the fact that even with some of my engines having high miles, they still run great when I am ready to sell the vehicle. Also here is XMs thoughts on the differance between dino and synthetic oil. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/What_Is_Synthetic_Motor_Oil.aspx

Thanks. They cover high temp and low temp performance but what is it about synthetic that allows extended ocis? Can't a dino with a good add pack do the same?

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: rjacket

Originally Posted By: tig1

Over the years I have found several reasons I think a quality synthetic is better than a dino oil. With that said the modern dino oils are far better than that of yester year. I like the longer OCI I can do with synthetic oil. I like the the way my engines stay very clean even with 200-350K on the engine. I like the satisfaction knowing I won't have to be concerned with ring coking. I like the way my engines perform in very cold temp starts. I like the satisfaction of knowing my engine oil holds up very well in very hot temps. I like the idea of doing less OCs. I like the idea of using less oil filters. I like the fact that even with some of my engines having high miles, they still run great when I am ready to sell the vehicle. Also here is XMs thoughts on the differance between dino and synthetic oil. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/What_Is_Synthetic_Motor_Oil.aspx

Thanks. They cover high temp and low temp performance but what is it about synthetic that allows extended ocis? Can't a dino with a good add pack do the same?

No. This is where the synthetic oil base stock comes into play. There's more to an oil holding up to long OCIs than TBN. I only do 10K OCIs(a creature of habit I am) but I have friends doing 15-20K OCIs for 300K and beyond, and their engines are still performing very well and staying clean to boot. You would sludge an engine doing that with dino. Also Toyota's answer to their sludger engine problems they had, or still have, was to use synthetic oil. My daughter had a 99 Lexus RX300( now a known sludger, but we didn't know it at the time) and I did 10K OCIs for her with M1 10-30. After 90k no problems and the engine, and is still doing fine for the person she sold it to.(her friend) Also notice the long OCIs that several Euro engines have. They require Synthetic oil. Also many Asian engines are now requireing synthetic oil(0-20) and uping their OCIs. These people know what they are doing IMMHO.

 

[rjacket]

So it's interesting how many synthetic oils don't advertise themselves as extending OCI's. Mobil 1 EP says 15k but M1 regular doesn't even claim to do 7.5k. I guess my conclusion from this thread is that for most driving scenarios, dino's performance is comparable to synthetic and it is only for extended OCI that you would go with synthetic. Exception being that engines that sludge can't seem to even go 5000 miles on dino.

 

[Capa]

Another advantage syn has over dino is that Mobil, Pennzoil, etc categorize their oils in different tiers. The higher you go the more effective their oils are in cleaning and protecting the engines. For example: http://www.imakenews.com/lubritec/e_article001782921.cfm?x=b11,0,w Mobil makes similar claims as you climb their tier ladder.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: rjacket

So it's interesting how many synthetic oils don't advertise themselves as extending OCI's. Mobil 1 EP says 15k but M1 regular doesn't even claim to do 7.5k. I guess my conclusion from this thread is that for most driving scenarios, dino's performance is comparable to synthetic and it is only for extended OCI that you would go with synthetic. Exception being that engines that sludge can't seem to even go 5000 miles on dino.

It would appear your mind was already made up which type of oil you were going to use before starting this thread. To let you know, your're wrong about the warranty for regular M1. It's 10K. here is the link. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Warranty.aspx

 

[rjacket]

Originally Posted By: tig1

Originally Posted By: rjacket

So it's interesting how many synthetic oils don't advertise themselves as extending OCI's. Mobil 1 EP says 15k but M1 regular doesn't even claim to do 7.5k. I guess my conclusion from this thread is that for most driving scenarios, dino's performance is comparable to synthetic and it is only for extended OCI that you would go with synthetic. Exception being that engines that sludge can't seem to even go 5000 miles on dino.

It would appear your mind was already made up which type of oil you were going to use before starting this thread. To let you know, your're wrong about the warranty for regular M1. It's 10K. here is the link. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Warranty.aspx

Thanks for the link. M1 must be an exception as I remember that even in the Ultra Q&A they didn't want to suggest going beyond the manufacturer recommendation. And in the Valvoline and Quaker State warranty programs they stipulate oil changes as per manufacturer requirements or even less. Actually, I use synthetic exclusively. I happen to think it's best to use the best you can find and afford especially when price wise there is very little difference (except in the case of the MB229.5 which I have to pay "full price" for even in a sale - it's a 9 quart oil change at $5-$6 a quart). I was trying to improve my understanding of the base oil vs the additive. I have a car that does 3k a year that used to get 6 month changes on MC blend. I managed to buy Synpower for a $ a quart and moved to annual oil changes. I have a stash for the next 3 years if I change once a year which is what I am doing. I was wondering whether the blend or even a dino could do something like 3k a year with short trips. Even when the car was getting only short trips, I was doing 6 month oci with blend when the manufacturer suggested it should be 3 months. I believe the oil and parts lubricated by the oil did fine with this. It was more that the fuel system built up carbon.

 

[Turk]

This is what I have been trying to tell someone here on my Saturn UOA thread, but, well, you read for yourself.

 

[Capa]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals

I think all the new SN oils are pretty good at that. But I dont see cars running syn all sludged up when they come in for repair, only dino's.

Agree. All vehicles that I ever heard that sludged up were on dino.

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: Capa

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals

I think all the new SN oils are pretty good at that. But I dont see cars running syn all sludged up when they come in for repair, only dino's.

Agree. All vehicles that I ever heard that sludged up were on dino.

I'm sure that 99% of the population running dino has something to do with that. Most people's vehicles do not need synthetic to live long, clean, happy lives.