Illinois Dealers Sue Rivian

[JeffKeryk]

What about going thru a car wash??

That's a huge problem. So is putting the car in neutral if you don't know how.

2 answers:
1 - Car wash workers know how to help owners. Seriously.
2 - There is a screen setting to switch wipers from auto to off.

I understand this is a request to be added to the voice commands.
You can also just bring your kid, as they know how to work these things best.

 

[JeffKeryk]

But their stores are not everywhere.

I think of the Apple stores as the gold standard for customer experience.

Yes, Tesla is in a rapid growth mode. I sometimes forget most of our nation does not have the availability of stuff like CA.
Here is a map showing current and future locations.
Tesla Locations

 

[OVERKILL]

People want to go and kick the tires and actually look and touch cars but they also list dealing with car salesmen as one of the worst things to do.

Maybe a middle ground would be a small store where displays would give them a similar experience but sales would be on computers?

With Tesla, you contact them on the website, they have locations where they have demo vehicles and you go and drive them. Zero pressure.

 

[Cujet]

It’s a lawsuit, the court will decide.
Actually the most interesting part in the article to me is the Rivian turned upside down. That’s not so much simplicity. What is salt going to do to all the aluminum? Maybe it’s anodized.

If we are looking at the same picture, I think that's just the chassis with the body off. Not upside-down. What I can see of the frame looks like it's painted steel. I will say this, I'm not at all sure I like some aspects of this design, in particular the air suspension that can change ride heights. Seems risky and exceedingly complex, not to mention it's stupidly hard to raise and lower a vehicle without seriously upsetting it's suspension geometry.

 

[Kruse]

in particular the air suspension that can change ride heights. Seems risky and exceedingly complex, not to mention it's stupidly hard to raise and lower a vehicle without seriously upsetting it's suspension geometry.

Maybe so. However, I do have a '93 Lincoln Mark VIII that has the air suspension that raises and lowers from the factory. Perhaps a person could search for it on YouTube, but they used to have a Mark VIII commercial on TV where they put a bar across the road that touched the roof of the Mark VIII at idle. Later in the commercial, they showed the Mark VIII driving down the road at 70 MPH and going underneath that bar without touching it, as the car loweres itself closer to the ground while at road speed.
My biggest fear would be the factory making air suspension parts obsolete or unavailability of the parts if the company would fold.
BTW, I realize my Mark VIII is closing in on 30 years, but you cannot get decent replacement air springs for it. Both Ford and the aftermarket have long forgotten about it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Maybe so. However, I do have a '93 Lincoln Mark VIII that has the air suspension that raises and lowers from the factory. Perhaps a person could search for it on YouTube, but they used to have a Mark VIII commercial on TV where they put a bar across the road that touched the roof of the Mark VIII at idle. Later in the commercial, they showed the Mark VIII driving down the road at 70 MPH and going underneath that bar without touching it, as the car loweres itself closer to the ground while at road speed.
My biggest fear would be the factory making air suspension parts obsolete or unavailability of the parts if the company would fold.
BTW, I realize my Mark VIII is closing in on 30 years, but you cannot get decent replacement air springs for it. Both Ford and the aftermarket have long forgotten about it.

Yup, lots of cars with factory air suspension, including EV's like the Audi e-tron. My parent's 2000 Expedition had air load levelling as did my dad's '89 Town Car. I deleted it when I got that car. The current higher trim RAM 1500 trucks also have it and can be lowered or raised, as do the higher trim level Grand Cherokee's.

 

[UncleDave]

Yeah Consumers gives Tesla a 100% reliability rating. It’s amazing. For me I take the Ford because it’s local economy. Even Toyota, even all gas. I wanna see the Ford sign in towns, their used cars for sale, and the other companies, and that’s it. I don’t want a fixed price and a promise the profit is all going to research or the betterment of the poor. Ya know it’s going to Musky. Might as well have Costco make a car you buy on a shelf and take it home.

Don't forget about the balloons and popcorn - it's a sales "event" every weekend!

 

[Job]

Don't forget about the balloons and popcorn - it's a sales "event" every weekend!

I remember the searchlight in the sky and you went to where it was coming from. Maybe they still do it some places. Tesla having fully paid employees with no back service bay and used car sales for income isn’t exactly a low cost model. Nothing like a commissioned sales person late on their own payments to work you into a car. It’s the American way.

 

[Cujet]

Maybe so. However, I do have a '93 Lincoln Mark VIII that has the air suspension that raises and lowers from the factory.

There is a huge difference between the 1 inch lowering on the Lincoln, which by the way, resulted in about a half degree more negative camber when lowered, and the 5 inches of the Rivian.

For those who don't spend a lot of time reviewing independent suspension design (as opposed to a live axle that always has both tires flat on the ground) , know that camber change MUST happen for the suspension to keep the tire in proper contact with the road.

In general, for every inch of suspension travel, the camber change is about 3/4 of a degree. Consider a car, leaning in a corner, with the outside front suspension compressed 2 inches. The angle of the body would cause significant problems with the tire if the suspension were not designed to (at least somewhat) accommodate this.

 

[Jake_J]

While I know next to nothing about the intricacies of Illinois state law, I think the long term prospects of Rivian may end up sorting this case out naturally.

 

[slo town]

Camber change, toe change, body roll, etc.

 

[UncleDave]

While I know next to nothing about the intricacies of Illinois state law, I think the long term prospects of Rivian may end up sorting this case out naturally.

If I were Rivian I'd tell Illinois the company will either move to Wisconsin or Indiana both a 1 hours drive from Chicago..
If they dont back' off the dealers they will miss out on the thing the state loves most dearly - taxes and fees

 

[Jake_J]

If I were Rivian I'd tell Illinois the company will either move to Wisconsin or Indiana both a 1 hours drive from Chicago..
If they dont back' off the dealers they will miss out on the thing the state loves most dearly - taxes and fees

Threatening the state of Illinois to move your company out of state because you're being sued by a bunch of dealers won't work, and will only make the company look bad. The state of Illnois doesn't control what a bunch of dealers do in their state, and who they may decide to sue. If Rivian wants to be a large and successful company in America, they will deal with annoying lawsuits regardless which state they call home.

 

[UncleDave]

Threatening the state of Illinois to move your company out of state because you're being sued by a bunch of dealers won't work, and will only make the company look bad. The state of Illnois doesn't control what a bunch of dealers do in their state, and who they may decide to sue. If Rivian wants to be a large and successful company in America, they will deal with annoying lawsuits regardless which state they call home.

It worked for caterpillar.

At some point the needs of the citizens and sate trump that of special interests.

 

[Jake_J]

It worked for caterpillar.

At some point the needs of the citizens and sate trump that of special interests.

I'm not really sure how this is a case of the needs of the people and the state vs that of a special interest. Will the people benefit if Rivian sells their trucks through their own channels rather than a franchised dealer? Is an iPhone or Macbook you buy direct from Apple any cheaper than one you buy at Bestbuy? In theory it should be, but in reality it's the exact same standard price. I'd say a bunch of dealers suing Rivian is a battle that is special interest versus special interest.

 

[UncleDave]

Why should the state or separate stand alone business be allowed dictate the insertion of a middle man?

How does a middle man that adds cost to the product help the customer or the company?

 

[JeffKeryk]

I'm not really sure how this is a case of the needs of the people and the state vs that of a special interest. Will the people benefit if Rivian sells their trucks through their own channels rather than a franchised dealer? Is an iPhone or Macbook you buy direct from Apple any cheaper than one you buy at Bestbuy? In theory it should be, but in reality it's the exact same standard price. I'd say a bunch of dealers suing Rivian is a battle that is special interest versus special interest.

Comparing an iPhone to a vehicle is, well, Apples to oranges. Only worse.
Any retailer can sell an iPhone in their brick and mortar store.
A car dealership is a completely different endeavour.
The Tesla direct sales model is the future; the dealership cost is pure overhead and cost. That money is better spent elsewhere and/or passed along to the consumer.

 

[Jake_J]

Comparing the direct sales model vs the franchised dealership is pretty similar in the case of Macbooks or electric cars. Any retailer can't sell you a iPhone or Macbook, they need to be a Apple reseller which comes with terms and conditions. It's no random fluke that Tesla has stores that look and feel like Apple stores. Most of the overhead of a dealership is needed, in the case of a shiny Tesla store in a mall they don't eliminate the overhead and cost of storage of extra inventory, the service center, the parts storage, etc they just move it to another place. I'm no fan of car dealerships but I'm just more realistic that for the average consumer a direct sales model means very little in terms of savings as it just changes who gets the retail markup. Sure in theory it should pass the savings to the customer, in the case of cars I'd like to see an honest example of that principle at work. Does anybody buy a Tesla because the direct sale model means they undercut the competition on price?

 

[UncleDave]

Comparing the direct sales model vs the franchised dealership is pretty similar in the case of Macbooks or electric cars. It's no random fluke that Tesla has stores that look and feel like Apple stores. Most of the overhead of a dealership is needed, in the case of a shiny Tesla store in a mall they don't eliminate the overhead and cost of storage of extra inventory, the service center, the parts storage, etc they just move it to another place. I'm no fan of car dealerships but I'm just more realistic that for the average consumer a direct sales model means very little in terms of savings as it just changes who gets the retail markup. Sure in theory it should pass the savings to the customer, in the case of cars I'd like to see an honest example of that principle at work. Does anybody buy a Tesla because the direct sale model means they undercut the competition on price?

The apple model doesn't compare because you can buy direct (MSRP) or through a channel at minimal discount.

Lets say the customer see no saving but the retail markup goes to a dealer...how does giving away a significant chunk of revenue help tesla compete against ICE cars and globally against China/ Japan etcetera?

What does the dealer actually do for Tesla to earn that markup?

Given there was no competition for the first 8 years Id say no one buys a telsa because of the sales model, but people like being able to work a direct deal and avoid " market adjustments" and having 3 people get three different prices.

 

[Job]

I still think the back shop service operations and used cars make a franchise possibly cheaper to run than a factory outlet store. Plus the staff works at least partially on commission. Cars aren’t phones. People take their car in to get ripped off as long as they own it, then get another one, take a beating on the trade, and start all over again. What’s not to like?