...then why bother marketing 5W30 or 10W30 when 0W30 is superior in startup than of the two grades mentioned?
Thanks,
Oz
Thanks,
Oz
If xw30 oils all fall under the same viscosity @ 100C...
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Patman
Staff member
Because some people will still prefer 10w30, like myself,mainly because the 0w30s and 5w30s aren't as stable and will thin out more easily under stress. A trend I have noticed when looking at 5w30 oil analysis results, on all brands, is that it thins out quite easily. 10w30 on the other hand, because of it's lesser amounts of VI improvers, stays a 30weight much longer.
MolaKule
Staff member
I am not sure that is the case:
Look below at 4 products, each has a Borderline Pumping Temperature below 33 F
http://www.amsoil.com/products/atm.html (10W30) BPT -40 F (Full Synth)
http://www.amsoil.com/products/tso.html (0W30) -40F (Full Synth)
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/156.html -45F (5W30 Full synth)
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/703.htm -33F (10W30 Blend)
How many of us need an oil at greater than -33 F?
And if the oil has good FM/antifriction additives, why risk thin films with an 0W30?
Look below at 4 products, each has a Borderline Pumping Temperature below 33 F
http://www.amsoil.com/products/atm.html (10W30) BPT -40 F (Full Synth)
http://www.amsoil.com/products/tso.html (0W30) -40F (Full Synth)
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/156.html -45F (5W30 Full synth)
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/703.htm -33F (10W30 Blend)
How many of us need an oil at greater than -33 F?
And if the oil has good FM/antifriction additives, why risk thin films with an 0W30?
Patman
Staff member
I'm putting the Schaeffers to the test this winter, as I'll run the 10w30 all year long. I don't think it'll have a problem with our mild winters (it rarely goes below 0F)
Patman -> Good point. However, I believe a good VI improver does exist and is being used out there. Delvac1 5W40 has been proven to stay within the 40wt specs based on oil analysis reports in this board.
MolaKule -> Wasn't it you who explained to me that Xw is for winter only, and the second number (which is 30 in this case) is the weight of the oil during proper engine temps.? If it wasn't you, then somebody did
Anyway, how can 0W30 be thinner than 5W30 during normal operating temps.?
Regards,
Oz
MolaKule -> Wasn't it you who explained to me that Xw is for winter only, and the second number (which is 30 in this case) is the weight of the oil during proper engine temps.? If it wasn't you, then somebody did
Regards,
Oz
MolaKule
Staff member
OZ,
"Patman -> Good point. However, I believe a good VI improver does exist and is being used out there. Delvac1 5W40 has been proven to stay within the 40wt specs based on oil analysis reports in this board. MolaKule -> Wasn't it you who explained to me that Xw is for winter only, and the second number (which is 30 in this case) is the weight of the oil during proper engine temps.? If it wasn't you, then somebody did Anyway, how can 0W30 be thinner than 5W30 during normal operating temps.?"
The post before this one which had the URL's was simply showing that 10W30's and 5W30's have as much cold temperature protection as the 0W30, even when comparing full synth's (Schaeffers and Amsoil) with synthetic blends (Schaeffers).
Firstly, Delvac 1 is a synthetic, and synthetics start off with a base oil that is closer to the median viscosity of operation/specification. The base has such a large inherent VI, that it's viscosity swing is narrow, hence the requirement for low treatment levels of VII's. The Amsoil 0W30 TSO is similar. Amsoil's tend to be on the higher side of the viscosity range than do Mobil's synth's.
With conventional (dino) oils, the oil starts out at say SAE 0 viscosity and VII's (such as poly methylacrylates, or PMA) have to be added to extend the operation to say SAE 30 grade viscosities. Now, when these PMA's (non-Newtonian long-chain molacules) shear under high load pressures, the oil viscosity is shifted toward the thinner end of the 0W30 spectrum, say a 5-15 grade (weight) range.
The lower the viscosity of any oil film, the less amount of load (force) the oil film can support. We then go from a floating platform (so to speak), to a platform skidding across the sand (boundary lubrication). Now, while hydrodynamic lubrication (floating) is the norm, at high loads and high speeds, you need an extra measure of metal separation which is called a friction modifier, ZDDP, Moly, special esters, etc.
So if you look at the BPT's, there is only a 7F degree difference between the 0W30 and the 10W30. My preference is to opt for a 10W30 which has the higher film strength's at higher temps.
"Patman -> Good point. However, I believe a good VI improver does exist and is being used out there. Delvac1 5W40 has been proven to stay within the 40wt specs based on oil analysis reports in this board. MolaKule -> Wasn't it you who explained to me that Xw is for winter only, and the second number (which is 30 in this case) is the weight of the oil during proper engine temps.? If it wasn't you, then somebody did Anyway, how can 0W30 be thinner than 5W30 during normal operating temps.?"
The post before this one which had the URL's was simply showing that 10W30's and 5W30's have as much cold temperature protection as the 0W30, even when comparing full synth's (Schaeffers and Amsoil) with synthetic blends (Schaeffers).
Firstly, Delvac 1 is a synthetic, and synthetics start off with a base oil that is closer to the median viscosity of operation/specification. The base has such a large inherent VI, that it's viscosity swing is narrow, hence the requirement for low treatment levels of VII's. The Amsoil 0W30 TSO is similar. Amsoil's tend to be on the higher side of the viscosity range than do Mobil's synth's.
With conventional (dino) oils, the oil starts out at say SAE 0 viscosity and VII's (such as poly methylacrylates, or PMA) have to be added to extend the operation to say SAE 30 grade viscosities. Now, when these PMA's (non-Newtonian long-chain molacules) shear under high load pressures, the oil viscosity is shifted toward the thinner end of the 0W30 spectrum, say a 5-15 grade (weight) range.
The lower the viscosity of any oil film, the less amount of load (force) the oil film can support. We then go from a floating platform (so to speak), to a platform skidding across the sand (boundary lubrication). Now, while hydrodynamic lubrication (floating) is the norm, at high loads and high speeds, you need an extra measure of metal separation which is called a friction modifier, ZDDP, Moly, special esters, etc.
So if you look at the BPT's, there is only a 7F degree difference between the 0W30 and the 10W30. My preference is to opt for a 10W30 which has the higher film strength's at higher temps.
I was just at Pep Boys today and looking at the Mobil 1 oils. They have these labels:
0W-30 Enhanced Fuel Economy
5W-30 Newer Vehicles
10W-30 Higher-Mileage Formula
These labels suggest that 0W & 5W oils are meant for vehicles in peak condition with tight tolerances... or else they may leak out of the engine.
(Mobil.com says 10W-30 is the most popular viscosity.)
Others:
0W-40 European Cars
15W-50 Racing Formula
0W-30 Enhanced Fuel Economy
5W-30 Newer Vehicles
10W-30 Higher-Mileage Formula
These labels suggest that 0W & 5W oils are meant for vehicles in peak condition with tight tolerances... or else they may leak out of the engine.
(Mobil.com says 10W-30 is the most popular viscosity.)
Others:
0W-40 European Cars
15W-50 Racing Formula
Patman
Staff member
I think those new labels are just that, labels, and mean nothing in terms of how the oil was designed. They put them there to avoid consumer confusion.
troy
If your not racing use the 0W40, you can't go wrong IMHO. D1 5W40 probably better again though.
If your not racing use the 0W40, you can't go wrong IMHO. D1 5W40 probably better again though.
MolaKule
Staff member
0W-30 Enhanced Fuel Economy
For CAFE at a sacrifice in wear.
5W-30 Newer Vehicles
Again for CAFE.
10W-30 Higher-Mileage Formula
Yeah, now we're talkin'
These labels suggest that 0W & 5W oils are meant for vehicles in peak condition with tight tolerances... or else they may leak out of the engine.
Not necessarily leak, but maybe for tighter tolerances and high RPM's. If seals are in good condition, they shouldn't be sensitive to oil viscosity.
(Mobil.com says 10W-30 is the most popular viscosity.)
And for good reason. Best overall economy, film strength, and low level of VII's.
For CAFE at a sacrifice in wear.
5W-30 Newer Vehicles
Again for CAFE.
10W-30 Higher-Mileage Formula
Yeah, now we're talkin'
These labels suggest that 0W & 5W oils are meant for vehicles in peak condition with tight tolerances... or else they may leak out of the engine.
Not necessarily leak, but maybe for tighter tolerances and high RPM's. If seals are in good condition, they shouldn't be sensitive to oil viscosity.
(Mobil.com says 10W-30 is the most popular viscosity.)
And for good reason. Best overall economy, film strength, and low level of VII's.
I really doubt that the average consumer even thinks about it. We are all a bunch of freaks really, to give this much time and thought to it.
I worked at an oil change place one summer, and 90% of the people who came in never asked for any particular oil. We put in 10W30 in most cases because it was allowed in the manual of the vast majority of the cars on the road. It was the "no-brainer."
Is the difference in VI improvers between 5W30 and 10W30 that significant?
Thanks,
Oz
Patman
Staff member
Oz, I believe it is pretty significant. Why you ask? Well, whenever I look at a 5w30 oil analysis,
I see that 9 times out of 10 that oil has thinned out to a 20wt (or pretty close to it). With
10w30 I don't see that too often. So therefore that means the 5w30 has more VI improvers,
since they are breaking down and causing the oil to thin.
I see that 9 times out of 10 that oil has thinned out to a 20wt (or pretty close to it). With
10w30 I don't see that too often. So therefore that means the 5w30 has more VI improvers,
since they are breaking down and causing the oil to thin.
MolaKule
Staff member
Generally speaking: For dinos yes, for full synthetics, no. Just remember, the wider the SAE viscosity spread, the more VII's.
Vader,
I have my tranny ATF and filter changed at my friends QL shop because I hate spilling fluid all over my garage, since I'm kinda of a messy guy anyway.
Many of the people that come in and ask for, or are asked about, a particular oil, usually respond with or associate with a brand they have seen on TV. Most see his rack of pretty bottles of oil on the shelf and pick, like "eeeny, meeeeny, minnnny, moooo!"
Of course, he then pumps the oil from bulk tanks. However, this is one concientious and honest dude, so what the customer receives is what he/she asks for.
And Johnny, his biggest seller is........the stuff with all the Yellow Canaries inside.
Vader,
I have my tranny ATF and filter changed at my friends QL shop because I hate spilling fluid all over my garage, since I'm kinda of a messy guy anyway.
Many of the people that come in and ask for, or are asked about, a particular oil, usually respond with or associate with a brand they have seen on TV. Most see his rack of pretty bottles of oil on the shelf and pick, like "eeeny, meeeeny, minnnny, moooo!"
Of course, he then pumps the oil from bulk tanks. However, this is one concientious and honest dude, so what the customer receives is what he/she asks for.
And Johnny, his biggest seller is........the stuff with all the Yellow Canaries inside.
From "Ask Mobil1" Archive:
...in such a case this would bring us back to the original question posed by Oz. I actually asked Mobil1 that same question a while back and they did not answer me, they gave out some other info to avoid the question.
I agree with Patman and Molakule. Yes it does provide lower protection. Even in synth (though not as significant). Also has much higher volatility and more smaller molecules. As shown on John S's TGA scans on vwvortex.com.
Red Line can admit to this fact, and actually states so on their website. Why can't Mobil1?
Yeah right it will
I agree with Patman and Molakule. Yes it does provide lower protection. Even in synth (though not as significant). Also has much higher volatility and more smaller molecules. As shown on John S's TGA scans on vwvortex.com.
Red Line can admit to this fact, and actually states so on their website. Why can't Mobil1?
I’m another believer in 10W30 over 5W30 or 0W30. As has been said, I prefer formulations with less VII as this stuff is:
1) The weak link of most oils, the first compounds to break down.
2) Most VII have no lubricating properties of their own, they are merely thickening agents. So, a VII-heavy formula loses some lubricating ability that the base oil and the rest of the additive package could be providing. Not an ideal situation.
The 5W30 oils which are down to a 5W20 after only a few thousand miles tells me that yes, the VII are indeed still relatively unstable and the oil does degrade even when modest drain intervals are used.
The beauty of a 10W30 synthetic is that the REAL synthetics of this weight need to use no (or almost no) VII at all. The formula is a stable, lubricant and anti-wear heavy lube.
It’s just about ideal for extended drains in most vehicles and should leave your engine cleaner than the same brand oil with a wider-spread as the broken-down VII is a large contributor to gunk and goo.
Having said all that, I still tend to use 5W30 as I like to maximize the fuel efficiency of my compact car.
I also use this lighter weight in the winter ... but I’m betting that I could easily get away with a 10W30 synthetic blend during the coldest season. Very few people will actually see an advantage by going with a 0W30 or 0W40 in the winter as the temps have to be around -20F or lower before a difference between the formulas will be significant.
I’ll be getting some 5W30 as well as 10W30 when I order my Schaeffer blend and if I keep my car that long, I’ll see if there’s a difference in wear between the two weights after 4,000 miles or so. In theory, they should both be about the same weight at operating temperature and so drag on the motor would be the same ... but this is merely theoretical. The VII’s performance will vary as stress on it varies.
As for the various Mobil 1 weights and he slogans/recommendations on each, I saw a bit of something which looked like a press release on the VW Vortex thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=313674&page=8
(It may be on page 6 or 7 of that thread) It said basically that all the weights were formulated similarly and that the different slogans were to help the clueless consumer choose the right weight of oil for their car. Of course, for guys like us who over-think this stuff, it just adds to the confusion.
— Bror Jace
1) The weak link of most oils, the first compounds to break down.
2) Most VII have no lubricating properties of their own, they are merely thickening agents. So, a VII-heavy formula loses some lubricating ability that the base oil and the rest of the additive package could be providing. Not an ideal situation.
The 5W30 oils which are down to a 5W20 after only a few thousand miles tells me that yes, the VII are indeed still relatively unstable and the oil does degrade even when modest drain intervals are used.
The beauty of a 10W30 synthetic is that the REAL synthetics of this weight need to use no (or almost no) VII at all. The formula is a stable, lubricant and anti-wear heavy lube.
Having said all that, I still tend to use 5W30 as I like to maximize the fuel efficiency of my compact car.
I’ll be getting some 5W30 as well as 10W30 when I order my Schaeffer blend and if I keep my car that long, I’ll see if there’s a difference in wear between the two weights after 4,000 miles or so. In theory, they should both be about the same weight at operating temperature and so drag on the motor would be the same ... but this is merely theoretical. The VII’s performance will vary as stress on it varies.
As for the various Mobil 1 weights and he slogans/recommendations on each, I saw a bit of something which looked like a press release on the VW Vortex thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=313674&page=8
(It may be on page 6 or 7 of that thread) It said basically that all the weights were formulated similarly and that the different slogans were to help the clueless consumer choose the right weight of oil for their car. Of course, for guys like us who over-think this stuff, it just adds to the confusion.
— Bror Jace
Looking at the views of the amount of VI improvers, between a 5W30 and a 10W30, I assume a 5W60 will contain a fair bit more then ....
How do you think this will fare over an extended drain of say 20000km/12500mi then ? What modes of deterioation can be expected ? Oh, in case you're wondering, the 5W60 is an OEM grade here for the BMW M3 ......
Thanks...
How do you think this will fare over an extended drain of say 20000km/12500mi then ? What modes of deterioation can be expected ? Oh, in case you're wondering, the 5W60 is an OEM grade here for the BMW M3 ......
Thanks...
Patman
Staff member
I remember when 5w30 first started being recommended by all the car makers, they claimed
it reduced engine wear because of faster flow on startup over 10w30. Some people
recently reminded me of this, as that is why they say they still use 5w30! I honestly don't
believe this though, I haven't noticed the 5w30 oil analysis results looking any better than
10w30. If anything it's the opposite, since the 10w30 doesn't thin out. And I think that the
10w30 with a good pour point will still flow through the engine just as fast as a 5w30. In a
lot of cases if you compare a 5w30 to a 10w30 in the same brand, their pour points are very
much the same. Case in point, Mobil 1:
10w30 is -49F, 5w30 is -54F, not much difference there!
Or look at Valvoline Synpower, both the 10w30 and 5w30 share the same pour point of
-42C! So in that case where is the advantage of using their 5w30??
it reduced engine wear because of faster flow on startup over 10w30. Some people
recently reminded me of this, as that is why they say they still use 5w30! I honestly don't
believe this though, I haven't noticed the 5w30 oil analysis results looking any better than
10w30. If anything it's the opposite, since the 10w30 doesn't thin out. And I think that the
10w30 with a good pour point will still flow through the engine just as fast as a 5w30. In a
lot of cases if you compare a 5w30 to a 10w30 in the same brand, their pour points are very
much the same. Case in point, Mobil 1:
10w30 is -49F, 5w30 is -54F, not much difference there!
Or look at Valvoline Synpower, both the 10w30 and 5w30 share the same pour point of
-42C! So in that case where is the advantage of using their 5w30??
What is the CCS viscosity though. I bet one is measured at -25 and the other -30.
Also a 0w30 will be measured at -35? I think.
My 0w30 has been holding up well, been using it for the last 3 year. Vis acutally went up not down. Barely a 40wt.
This is becuase I didin't change the filter at 6 months like I was supposed to.
I still say a good 0w30 will outperform a 10w30, does better in the cold, and has about the same high temp protection.
We have also forgotten about price. At least in the case of Amsoil the 0W30 is $2/quart more then the 5W or 10W30. This price differencial has not been justified to me as I have seen no diff in anything (mpg, oil analysis results etc.) to make a case for the 0W. Perhaps if I lived in MN,, Maine or Alaska.
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