Or, you could look at the same survey soted another way. It did get 4.5 out of 5 stars on average.
Same survey
I had a new Camry for a few days...
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Same survey
TTS:
I've almost given up on Edmunds and its ilk. They make their evaluations based upon a narrow set of assumptions that may or may not apply to a particular buyer, but offer those opinions as if they should apply with equal force to everyone who buys an X or a Y or a Prius. Right out of the gate, my ownership cost will be far lower than they predict because their first assumption, that you buy one new, is wrong. I happened upon a particularly good example: two-years-old, loaded with features, and only 15k miles. Today new, such a car would cost north of $30k. I got it for barely over $20k. There are a number of other flaws in the standard, assumption-based analyses which fill the magazines and websites, at least as applied to my case.
EDIT: one more thing, often, the subtle anti-Prius reviews that compare it to other cars, and then conclude little or no advantage despite the fuel savings incorrectly assume outrageous traction battery replacement costs (as high as $7000-8000 in some cases). This is pure fantasy. TODAY if you had to buy a Prius traction batt out of wty, the cost is ~$2300, and is expected to continue falling. And the initial predicted 150k mile life is proving way short too (there are already a bunch of Gen-II Prii over 200k with no signs of batt issues). Yet another flaw in the anti-hybrid naysayers' arguments.
I guess my point is that whatever you choose to drive, don't rely upon some magazine writer, who will never know the first thing about you and your life, to value car choices for you. Their write-ups are often decent starting points, but that's all. For some, a hybrid is a poor, very bad choice (very low milers on a tight budget). For others, they make sense right now. I do not advocate them for everyone, and I don't know where you fall on the spectrum. I guess you could say I'm quite "self-satisfied" (
), but that's because I made my calculations based upon where I was, and decided that the target of opportunity before me was worth striking. For others, no way.
Volvohead:
Honestly, I think the "quality crisis" thing is overblown. As Ray mentioned, they're already well ahead of the major issue that hit recently (the 6-spd auto snap rings), and they seem to respond well when issues arise. I'm wonder if Toyota has not become a victim of its own success and perhaps the "Lexus pursuit of perfection" ads? In reality though, Toyota is just another outfit trying hard to turn a profit by making extremely complex machines. Once in a while, there will be a problem, and some adjustments may be needed from time to time, but as a multiple Toyota owner (two at the moment), I don't see a "crisis" at all.
[ August 24, 2006, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
I've almost given up on Edmunds and its ilk. They make their evaluations based upon a narrow set of assumptions that may or may not apply to a particular buyer, but offer those opinions as if they should apply with equal force to everyone who buys an X or a Y or a Prius. Right out of the gate, my ownership cost will be far lower than they predict because their first assumption, that you buy one new, is wrong. I happened upon a particularly good example: two-years-old, loaded with features, and only 15k miles. Today new, such a car would cost north of $30k. I got it for barely over $20k. There are a number of other flaws in the standard, assumption-based analyses which fill the magazines and websites, at least as applied to my case.
EDIT: one more thing, often, the subtle anti-Prius reviews that compare it to other cars, and then conclude little or no advantage despite the fuel savings incorrectly assume outrageous traction battery replacement costs (as high as $7000-8000 in some cases). This is pure fantasy. TODAY if you had to buy a Prius traction batt out of wty, the cost is ~$2300, and is expected to continue falling. And the initial predicted 150k mile life is proving way short too (there are already a bunch of Gen-II Prii over 200k with no signs of batt issues). Yet another flaw in the anti-hybrid naysayers' arguments.
I guess my point is that whatever you choose to drive, don't rely upon some magazine writer, who will never know the first thing about you and your life, to value car choices for you. Their write-ups are often decent starting points, but that's all. For some, a hybrid is a poor, very bad choice (very low milers on a tight budget). For others, they make sense right now. I do not advocate them for everyone, and I don't know where you fall on the spectrum. I guess you could say I'm quite "self-satisfied" (
Volvohead:
Honestly, I think the "quality crisis" thing is overblown. As Ray mentioned, they're already well ahead of the major issue that hit recently (the 6-spd auto snap rings), and they seem to respond well when issues arise. I'm wonder if Toyota has not become a victim of its own success and perhaps the "Lexus pursuit of perfection" ads? In reality though, Toyota is just another outfit trying hard to turn a profit by making extremely complex machines. Once in a while, there will be a problem, and some adjustments may be needed from time to time, but as a multiple Toyota owner (two at the moment), I don't see a "crisis" at all.
[ August 24, 2006, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
EKPolk, the assumption that fuel mileage pays for itself can be off-kilter, the point I was trying to make.
If I set up the TRUE COST TO OWN calculator at Edmunds for a 2004 Prius, and a 2004 Chrysler 300, I find both at the same sale price, both with extra-low operating and depreciation costs, and advantage to the Prius by .08/cents-per-mile; or, about $6000 over five years running.
At that point, the Prius looks good from the standpoint of money saved. $1,200/yr or $23/week.
It still does not address survivability in a wreck.
Safety overrides the $ savings for me. The Chrysler can take more than one hit and still provide protection the Prius (and other small cars) cannot once the airbags have deployed (if they do). They're useless on the second hit.
For me there are no cars big enough any more. The largest are "midsize". I'd like to see 122" plus wheelbases, 4000-lbs or more weight, and a drivetrain that'll provide good highway mileage.
Still, looking forward to more of your experiences.
If I set up the TRUE COST TO OWN calculator at Edmunds for a 2004 Prius, and a 2004 Chrysler 300, I find both at the same sale price, both with extra-low operating and depreciation costs, and advantage to the Prius by .08/cents-per-mile; or, about $6000 over five years running.
At that point, the Prius looks good from the standpoint of money saved. $1,200/yr or $23/week.
It still does not address survivability in a wreck.
Safety overrides the $ savings for me. The Chrysler can take more than one hit and still provide protection the Prius (and other small cars) cannot once the airbags have deployed (if they do). They're useless on the second hit.
For me there are no cars big enough any more. The largest are "midsize". I'd like to see 122" plus wheelbases, 4000-lbs or more weight, and a drivetrain that'll provide good highway mileage.
Still, looking forward to more of your experiences.
Yep!
It could either be a software problem or a problem with the actuator.
Someone at Toyota is going to have to figure out which.
I wish them luck. Intermittent problems are so much fun.
Someone at Toyota is going to have to figure out which.
I wish them luck. Intermittent problems are so much fun.
Just a couple thoughts. First, now take it a step furhter. Remove a couple of their assumptions, and plug in a good used example (admittedly, I was lucky to find mine, two years old, only 15k miles, Toyota 7/100 wty, loaded, mint, and $20k) instead. That will alter the analytic outcome significantly. I just hate how the magazine writers make one set of assumptions, announce their conclusions as if that's the way it is, and never acknowledge that there are other sets of circumstances that apply.quote:
Originally posted by TheTanSedan:
EKPolk, the assumption that fuel mileage pays for itself can be off-kilter, the point I was trying to make.
If I set up the TRUE COST TO OWN calculator at Edmunds for a 2004 Prius, and a 2004 Chrysler 300, I find both at the same sale price, both with extra-low operating and depreciation costs, and advantage to the Prius by .08/cents-per-mile; or, about $6000 over five years running.
(...snip...)
It still does not address survivability in a wreck.
Safety overrides the $ savings for me. The Chrysler can take more than one hit and still provide protection the Prius (and other small cars) cannot once the airbags have deployed (if they do). They're useless on the second hit.
(...snip...)Still, looking forward to more of your experiences.
Safety. Check out the Prius IIHS results here. As you can see, tops in all categories. With curtain shields (I wouldn't have ANY car without them), it's also tops in the side ratings too (and as with a lot of cars, poor without them). In addition, I think that you are, as many others have, falling victim to the Prius optical illusion. This car is substantially larger than it looks. It's wheelbase is over 106 inches and it tips the scales, as normally configured, at right around 3000 pounds. In short, it's a lot closer to Camry-size than Corolla-size. No, it's not the behemoth that you're longing for, but of course, in exchange, the Prius guy gets a good bit of accident-avoiding agility that a 122" wheelbase car is going to be hardpressed to deliver. Of course, I'm not trying to sell you a Prius; you should drive what makes you comfortable and what fits your budget.
Ray:
Yep, as you said, it is DBW. Frankly, I'm a tad perplexed by Toyota's DBW setup. I found the system to be just "laggy" enough that it wasn't transparent, and instead, was often an annoyance. This was particularly true during stop-and-go big city commuting driving. By contrast, the DBW setup in the G35 was totally transparent, and did a much better job of transferring the driver's intent to the drivetrain. My V-6 Camry was a Gen-5 (car previous to the current new version). I really hope that they get DBW improved in the newer cars. There's no reason drivers should find themselves trying to second guess the ECU each time they step on the gas. I often locked out the top gear to mitigate the DBW'S bad manners. When I step on the gas hard, that means I want to go faster, now. I don't want some &^$^ computer second guessing me and delaying action to see if I really mean it or not, or whether it can save me a few drops of gas, despite my obvious efforts to accelerate. . .
I have the best and worst of both worlds. Years ago I got tired of Fords breaking on me, and I was one brand loyal SOB at the time too so I went to what my friends were raving about, Honda's. That lasted about four years of oil burning and oil leaking which lo and behold my friends didn't tell me about during their excitement. Mind you, the Honda wasn't a bad car, it was that my perception from what I was told was it should have been better. So I went to GM cars and trucks while my wife had her Toyota's. Both held out about the same. Then at about 120,000 miles the Camry started giving us trouble. The thing that killed me, since I'm a DIY'er like many here, was the parts prices on Toyota's. So the steering rack goes out on a 95 Camry. I call up my autoparts store since they sold me one for about $400 for my Pontiac about a year earlier (which by the way had 150,000 miles on it). The Camry rack was $800!!! I said you've got to be kidding me. No they told me, those were "special". I said how many Camry's did they sell in 95?..about 300,000 I suppose. Next a master window switch died..whoops only available from Toyota at $160...
So now I drive...whatever I am comfortable in. No brand loyalty at all. The initial story on this thread said it all, the new Camry was uncomfortable as all get out to that driver. That alone would make me nuts.
In my job now, I drive a rental car each and every week of the year. I get to, and look to, drive a different car and try them all. GM still builds a lot of nice..rental cars. I'm liking driving the Dodge Magnum Wagon even though it too has it's flaws. Guys, the best car is the one you like, who cares what someone else thinks of you or it? Me thinks that the guys who boast the loudest (like the Honda owners years ago in my life) are hiding the most. Just my two cents, flame away, because you know what, I dont care what you think
By the way, GM still builds the best trucks on the planet.
So now I drive...whatever I am comfortable in. No brand loyalty at all. The initial story on this thread said it all, the new Camry was uncomfortable as all get out to that driver. That alone would make me nuts.
In my job now, I drive a rental car each and every week of the year. I get to, and look to, drive a different car and try them all. GM still builds a lot of nice..rental cars. I'm liking driving the Dodge Magnum Wagon even though it too has it's flaws. Guys, the best car is the one you like, who cares what someone else thinks of you or it? Me thinks that the guys who boast the loudest (like the Honda owners years ago in my life) are hiding the most. Just my two cents, flame away, because you know what, I dont care what you think
By the way, GM still builds the best trucks on the planet.
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