I Guess It's Time To Out Myself...

Messages
598
Location
Georgia
I have been a frequent lurker and occasional poster here at BITOG for about five years now. My name is Steve Lang, and a few of you have known about my work as a car dealer and former auto auction owner here in northwest Georgia. I am also co-developing a long-term reliability study that has been well publicized at Yahoo and other online publications. http://tradeinqualityindex.com/ Long story short, I am developing an article tentatively titled, "Should You Change Your Motor Oil Every 15,000 Miles?" I realize there is no easy universal answer to this question and, with that said, I'm more interested in providing an article that covers as many bases as possible. Even if that requires an answer of, "It depends...", it's better to give folks a specific answer instead of blank generalizations. If any of you know or have specific relationships with industry professionals who could answer this question as it pertains to specific types of engines, it would be a great help. Like a lot of you, I have my own assumptions and personal experiences. But I think it's always worth our time to get advice from experts who have the scientific background to help give the right definitive answers to our questions. That's one of the innumerable reasons why I have been a part of this community for over five years now. Thanks for everything. If you Google "Steven Lang and cars and Facebook" online, you will find an easy way to contact me. I'll also respond here as well. All the best!
 
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Messages
218
Location
Florida
Its true on BITOG there are a lot of layman, not always experts or even engineers, so you'll get extreme opinions both ways, for long and short OCIs, synthetic and conventional, etc. Certainly research as much as you can on GM's OLM (Oil Life Monitor) algorithms which are implemented in software in engine computers. Going to the tougher GM dexos1 oil specification standards also relate back to the OLM oil life calculations that take into account short trips, cold weather, high RPM times, etc, except (notably!) for dusty conditions. Also, BMW and some other makes have Oil Quality Sensors which use dielectric and resistance measurements directly sensed in the sump to determine if impurities are present (oxidation, anti-freeze contamination, carbon soot levels, etc.). Direct sensing appears to work well to determine oil quality levels. I'd say you can go 15,000 miles or 1 year on oil changes if the following criteria is met: 1) Using Castrol Edge Extended, Royal Purple, Mobil1 Extended, Amsoil products the oil companies back for those intervals. 2) Using a superior dirt-holding capacity oil filter like Fram Ultra synthetic media, Royal Purple synthetic, M1 oil filters, Fram ToughGaurd, Wix/NAPAgold, Purolator Synthetic, Amsoil EaO, MicroGreen oil filters, all that have great filter efficiency and the ability to hold a lot of gunk. 3) Most trip lengths last at least 15 minutes. 4) Less than 10% of travel is on dusty roads. 5) No anti-freeze contamination in oil occurs and the air filter is sealing well by being installed properly. 6) Commit to checking oil level every 2 weeks or so. Fleets who have gone to long oil change intervals have reported low oil levels from not checking the oil diligently.
 
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Messages
8,505
Location
Champlain/Hudson Valley
Hello, Since oil analysis results are data I suggest correlating engine type/application, environment/in service time/oil type with that data. When the oil is likely to be "no good anymore" is what you're looking for. Ripped media, wildly varying filter and oil quality, engine condition, driving style and setting combine to weaken any case for long oil change intervals. The solidity of data will quickly fall away. There are way too many variables. You'd need to find many examples of oil lasting 20,000 miles to even think of making any 15,000 mile claim. Oil and filters are cheap. Pushing the oil change envelope isn't going to be universally correct or positively effective beyond sparing Mother Earth the stress of a few excess oil changes. PERSONAL BUG-A-BOO: How many times have motorists ignored their oil level because they have a 12,000 or 15,000 OCI? Stationary engines and fleets (taxi/truck/police/bus) will give you the largest batch of solid data. The tentative title of your article over simplifies the topic. Kira
 

macarose

Thread starter
Messages
598
Location
Georgia
Thanks to the both of you. What I'm looking at developing is a flow chart that will get people to consider most of the possibilities you mentioned. It will more than likely start with the following question... Do you just want to use conventional oil and follow the oil change requirements in your owner's manual? Yes ----> Just do that! No -----> Are you willing to get an oil analysis? Yes---> Next question. No --->Just follow your owner's manual. Most everyone will be pointed towards following their owner's manual. Others will be presented to the alternatives that are all too familiar to the audience here, but may not be well known to a mainstream audience. It would be nice to use motor oil and other fluids to their fullest. But unfortunately, technology and human behavior have a bit of catching up to do. Many consumers decide to go the lazy route with their oil changes and other maintenance and, unfortunately, I will have to account for that in this article. If there is anyone specific I can speak with please feel free to let me know. I want to help those folks who can benefit from this information while keeping the inattentive ones as far away from their neglectful behavior as possible. All the best.
 
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Messages
262
Location
Central Florida
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
I'd say you can go 15,000 miles or 1 year on oil changes if the following criteria is met: 1) Using Castrol Edge Extended, Royal Purple, Mobil1 Extended, Amsoil products the oil companies back for those intervals. 2) Using a superior dirt-holding capacity oil filter like Fram Ultra synthetic media, Royal Purple synthetic, M1 oil filters, Fram ToughGaurd, Wix/NAPAgold, Purolator Synthetic, Amsoil EaO, MicroGreen oil filters, all that have great filter efficiency and the ability to hold a lot of gunk. 3) Most trip lengths last at least 15 minutes. 4) Less than 10% of travel is on dusty roads. 5) No anti-freeze contamination in oil occurs and the air filter is sealing well by being installed properly. 6) Commit to checking oil level every 2 weeks or so. Fleets who have gone to long oil change intervals have reported low oil levels from not checking the oil diligently.
7) not a GDI engine
 

JAG

Messages
5,320
Location
Fredericksburg, VA
A flow chart is a good idea and the criteria mentioned by others above are good. I would also add that the engine must be known to not be a sludger. I know that's vague criteria and perhaps it could be refined with additional info. For example, I've never been able to do longer OCIs than around 4k miles even with long drain synthetic oils without my VW GTI 1.8T engine varnishing. My driving is mostly 50 mph trips with few stops that last 40 minutes. It's crazy.
 
Messages
218
Location
Florida
^^^^JAG, its been said we desperately need valve covers that have quick-release (easy) hatches big enough to get a good view of sludging in the valvetrain. This would make a great inspection, as in, when the first slightest signs of varnish/sludge occurs, then its time to change the oil.
 
Messages
2,400
Location
In The Region Between
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
Its true on BITOG there are a lot of layman, not always experts or even engineers, so you'll get extreme opinions both ways, for long and short OCIs, synthetic and conventional, etc. Certainly research as much as you can on GM's OLM (Oil Life Monitor) algorithms which are implemented in software in engine computers. Going to the tougher GM dexos1 oil specification standards also relate back to the OLM oil life calculations that take into account short trips, cold weather, high RPM times, etc, except (notably!) for dusty conditions. Also, BMW and some other makes have Oil Quality Sensors which use dielectric and resistance measurements directly sensed in the sump to determine if impurities are present (oxidation, anti-freeze contamination, carbon soot levels, etc.). Direct sensing appears to work well to determine oil quality levels. I'd say you can go 15,000 miles or 1 year on oil changes if the following criteria is met: 1) Using Castrol Edge Extended, Royal Purple, Mobil1 Extended, Amsoil products the oil companies back for those intervals. 2) Using a superior dirt-holding capacity oil filter like Fram Ultra synthetic media, Royal Purple synthetic, M1 oil filters, Fram ToughGaurd, Wix/NAPAgold, Purolator Synthetic, Amsoil EaO, MicroGreen oil filters, all that have great filter efficiency and the ability to hold a lot of gunk. 3) Most trip lengths last at least 15 minutes. 4) Less than 10% of travel is on dusty roads. 5) No anti-freeze contamination in oil occurs and the air filter is sealing well by being installed properly. 6) Commit to checking oil level every 2 weeks or so. Fleets who have gone to long oil change intervals have reported low oil levels from not checking the oil diligently.
I think the above post covers about 90% of the criteria needed. Not all cars can do a 15,000 mile OCI. Many can but it depends on the factors above, as well as others peculiar to the car involved.
 
Messages
1,623
Location
western australia
You can not write up anything without making reference to the OEM guidelines despite the knowledge gained on this site. My observation is that the OEM guidelines keep getting confirmed over and over again.
 
Messages
2,391
Location
Paradise of Florida
An engine timer or fuel consumption meter would be more accurate than an odometer. What would your oil failure points be? Total wear ppm, tan, tbn, tan:tbn crossover, oil visc after shearing, particle count saturation,.... 250-350hrs is what I consider a safe limit for any full synthetic. Depending on MPG, 250-350 gallons is another option. Sump size, filtration capabilities, and engine issues can be adapted to. Blind 15k interval is foolish. And, the consumers inability to use a dipstick will ruin many engines before they reach 15k.
 
Messages
218
Location
Florida
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
An engine timer or fuel consumption meter would be more accurate than an odometer. What would your oil failure points be? Total wear ppm, tan, tbn, tan:tbn crossover, oil visc after shearing, particle count saturation,.......
A timer doesn't work right for short trips, although its perfect for taxi cabs, other fleets, over the road trucks, and anything that never takes short trips. TBN is the answer. It appears to wear out first. Thats why Fram came up with the additive they use in their Fram High Mileage oil filters. If we could get that stuff they use and just add it to the oil at 5,000 miles, it would allow for longer times between oil changes.
 
Messages
218
Location
Florida
The Fram High Mileage gel they use is covered in a patent at http://www.google.com/patents/US7018531 "15. The oil filter of claim 13, wherein the additive composition comprises at least one additive selected from the group consisting of basic conditioners, corrosion inhibitors, metal deactivators, axitioxidants, dispersants, friction modifiers, oil stabilizers, pour point depressants, detergents, viscosity index improvers, anti-wear agents, extreme pressure additives, and mixtures thereof."
 
Messages
3,557
Location
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
The Fram High Mileage gel they use is covered in a patent at http://www.google.com/patents/US7018531 "15. The oil filter of claim 13, wherein the additive composition comprises at least one additive selected from the group consisting of basic conditioners, corrosion inhibitors, metal deactivators, axitioxidants, dispersants, friction modifiers, oil stabilizers, pour point depressants, detergents, viscosity index improvers, anti-wear agents, extreme pressure additives, and mixtures thereof."
And it contains PTFE(Teflon) that people on this board bash to no end. You know the stuff found in Slick50, Tufoil, Best Engine treatments...
 
Messages
147
Location
Ft. Collins
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
The Fram High Mileage gel they use is covered in a patent at http://www.google.com/patents/US7018531 "15. The oil filter of claim 13, wherein the additive composition comprises at least one additive selected from the group consisting of basic conditioners, corrosion inhibitors, metal deactivators, axitioxidants, dispersants, friction modifiers, oil stabilizers, pour point depressants, detergents, viscosity index improvers, anti-wear agents, extreme pressure additives, and mixtures thereof."
And it contains PTFE(Teflon) that people on this board bash to no end. You know the stuff found in Slick50, Tufoil, Best Engine treatments...
I wondered whats in it too. Not teflon, its a friction modifier. Fram claims: "FRAM High Mileage filter contains a cartridge of proprietary detergents and compounds that maintain viscosity, reduce corrosive wear, neutralize acids and keep engine component cleaner" None of those things falls into the teflon category, their all detergents, VI polymers, TBN improvers. No friction modifiers mentioned.
 
Messages
3,557
Location
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: route66mike
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
The Fram High Mileage gel they use is covered in a patent at http://www.google.com/patents/US7018531 "15. The oil filter of claim 13, wherein the additive composition comprises at least one additive selected from the group consisting of basic conditioners, corrosion inhibitors, metal deactivators, axitioxidants, dispersants, friction modifiers, oil stabilizers, pour point depressants, detergents, viscosity index improvers, anti-wear agents, extreme pressure additives, and mixtures thereof."
And it contains PTFE(Teflon) that people on this board bash to no end. You know the stuff found in Slick50, Tufoil, Best Engine treatments...
I wondered whats in it too. Not teflon, its a friction modifier. Fram claims: "FRAM High Mileage filter contains a cartridge of proprietary detergents and compounds that maintain viscosity, reduce corrosive wear, neutralize acids and keep engine component cleaner" None of those things falls into the teflon category, their all detergents, VI polymers, TBN improvers. No friction modifiers mentioned.
You can email Fram, they'll tell you that they coat their filter with PTFE resin which is a slow release resin that deposits PTFE particles in a slow amount during the whole OCI.
 
Messages
3,557
Location
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
I haven't seen a Fram DG or doublegard ptfe equipped filter in a long time.
It's in their High Mileage filter I believe
 
Messages
3,557
Location
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
I haven't seen that ptfe info on the HM box or Fram's website. I don't believe it until Fram says so. Let's not start any rumors. I want my ptfe and will have to stick with Tufoil and Krytox.
That was the response I got from Fram when I emailed them about it. But I am dating myself as this was probably over 3 years ago. Indeed they may have discontinued using it so I'll rescind my comments. BTW, I am a Tufoil user. I even have a UOA on this board a long time ago using it in a 2006 Lexus ES330. It looked great!
 
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