I can't be the first.. Why won't it work?

[md_lucky_13]

I know that I cannot be the first person to think of this, so I have to ask.. Why won't it work? I'm assuming that I am missing something here, otherwise everyone would be jumping all over this. So, here is what I have researched.. My plan.. Should it work, or is this bound to fail?

What I am trying to do is build a bypass filter system out of commonly avaiable parts for less then 1/2 the price of the expensive, after-market type brands.. Now, I have nothing against Amsoil.. Infact, I'm trying to duplicate THEIR system.. I just want to see if it can be done CHEAPER.

I want to take a block-off adapter from my oil filter on an 01 Dodge Cummins. I want to run this block off over to a remote, 2 filter system. 1 filter will be my full flow, the other filter will be my bypass. As you can see, it is identical to the Amsoil system.. But, where I want to differ is in A: filter base, and B: Filters.

It is my #1 goal to be able to purchase my filters from almost any local autoparts store, and be able to purchase them for much less then the Amsoil system.

I am planning on using a dual remote system that has standard 3/4-16 thread base. For the first filter, I want to use WIX #51773. This filter has the correct 3/4 thread, is 6.91 inches tall, and has a similar bypass setting to Amsoils at 8-11 psi. It has a burst rating of 225, which is very similar to the SDF-26 from Amsoil, I am told. The problem I am fighting is this: the filter is only rated to flow at 7-9 GPM. Is this a problem? I have not been able to find ANY information on the Amsoil flow rates... I am assuming that if Amsoil's SDF-26 flows at a similar rate, then it should work.. ON A SIDE NOTE: Irony at its best, I am also considering the SDF-26 as a filter option if I cannot use the Wix.. I have researched several filters in this size, including PH977a, Wix 51773, and it appears to me that these are the same as the Amsoil SDF-26.. I just need to make sure that the Wix filter meets the same (or extremely similar) ratings as the Amsoil filter... If Amsoil is willing to put a filter in their Dual remote system that has a bypass of 7-9 psi, I have to assume that this will not harm my large Diesel engine.


For the bypass filter, I am considering the Wix 51641. This filter has a 7-9 GPM flow, 3/4-16 threads, and a 345psi burst. I have not been able to find any information on the Amsoil BE-100 bypass filter, so I need to know if these ratings are similar? What grabbed my attention was this filter is a 3/4-16 threaded bypass, where it seems to be dang near impossible to find a 3/4-16 true bypass filter. I spoke with someone from Wix who told me that this filter will take 10% of the oil and filter it through, while the rest of the oil will be sent back to the engine. The other problem I have with this bypass filter is that it is only rated to 12 micron.. Obviously, I would like a lower micron count, but in the sake of saving several hundred dollars, I will sacrifice micron rating for cost.

The cost?

So far:

Dual Remote Filter Plate: 9.99
Wix 51773 Full Flow: $10.50
Wix 51641 Bypass: $28.72

I still need to purchase the block off adapter from Amsoil (the part that sends oil from the stock filer location over to my dual remote) and I plan on purchasing some high quality lines for the oil. I imagine it will bump my price up to around $100-$150 for the enire system, so the INITIAL costs not going to be as much as I hoped. However, my continued costs for filter replacement should be considerably less... (lets not get into an arguement of drain interval and filter replacement... I know what Amsoil claims their filters are good too, and I WILL not run filters that long. I have my drain/filter intervals decided, no matter what a company states, so no matter if I am running Amsoil filters or these Wix filters: my intervals will remain the same).


The biggest concern I have his GPM flow, and making sure that I do not starve the engine of oil. Does anyone know what the SDF-26 oil filter and BE-100 bypass filters from Amsoil are rated at as far as GPM?? That would really put my mind at ease..


Are there any other ideas/concerns as to why this system would not work? Anything that I am forgetting?

Would I be better off leaving the stock oil filter in place and tapping into the small access hole on top of the adapter plate on my 01 Cummins, and then running a return line to the valve cover? Or does the adapter that removes the stock oil filter and takes all the oil over to my dual remote system seem alright?

What could go WRONG?

 

[johnd]

I think you are about to find out the same thing that I did. I added a bypass filter using a PB50 Fram cartridge bypass filter unit. When I took it off like I cut it open only to find that it is a one thickness pleated paper filter with a flow restrictor at the output. The Amsoil unit is packed with material compressed by a heavy spring. I can't speak for the WIX numbers you give but if there is a cartridge filter available that is good as the Amsoil or a TP unit like the Franz, I haven't found it and if it isn't that good, what is the point of having a bypass anyway. I converted a System one to TP use with some plumbing parts and half a tuna can it it is far better than the PB50 ever was.

 

[Dick in Falls Church]

The owner of Perfect Circle Corp, which makes Dixie Chopper professional lawn mowers, told us that he checked with every filter company he could find. He wanted to be able to get equivalent filtration (3 microns absolute) to that offered by the AMSOIL Bypass Filter elements, but cheaper. He said he got nowhere. Far as I know, he still buys lots of BE-90s to put on the OEM and for replacement sales.

You could probably check on ebay or with veteran AMSOIL dealers, and cut a deal on the older kit with the cast aluminum filter heads.
Doubtful you'd be able to get a billet aluminum head much less expensively than what AMSOIL charges.

The SDF-26 is about 94% efficient at 15 microns.

Of course, you can change your filters as often as you desire. It would probably make economic sense to use oil analysis as a guide. This is going to cost you about $20 a pop-- or you can start with the AMSOIL recommended drain interval and extend that with oil analysis.

Please let us know if you are successful.

 

[md_lucky_13]

If we assume (just for the sake of arguement here) that I'm willing to accept that fact that even though this system is far less expensive then the Amsoil system, it will probably NOT be able to filter to the same degree..

If I'm alright with that.. If it is acceptable.. Are there any other concerns that should stop me from building the system the way I have described?

Both the SDF-26 and the BE-100 will filter better then the 2 oil filters I have looked at.. Which, in all fairness to Amsoil, is why they SHOULD cost more... But my filter replacements for BOTH filters will be under $40, and I can buy them at any Wix dealer... That is a hard bargain to argue.

 

[LarryL]

Do I understand you... you want to take oil from the previous oil filter location to a dual remote adaptor, with a full flow and a bypass. If that's the case you need a restriction in the line to create a delta so the bypass has somewhere to return to. Amsoil does this with a valve and a spring but I don't think anyone else does. I think the two filters show be seperated and may share the same supply line but the return for the bypass should be isolated and return to a no-pressure area.

 

[olympic]

Cheapest/easiest bypass kit:

BP80A mount from Amsoil- $14.50
BE-90 filter element- $26.25
Fittings and hoses from local hardware store- $10

No it's not a dual remote but it's cheap, just as effective and easy to install. I run this exact setup on all my auto transmissions and I'm very happy with the performance. You still have to get the filters from Amsoil but they last 25k. Order 2 or 3 and be set for years to come.

If you really want a dual remote, you could use something like this. All you'd need to do is fabricate a resirictor for the side that will hold the bypasss filter. Drill a 1/16" hole in a pipe plug and tap threads into the center tube in the mount and install the plug....done.

 

[Gary Allan]

Since you're not expecting perfection here. I don't see any reaso why it won't work within the limitations that you describe. The issues that LarryL bring up are what I ran into doing exactly what you're doing ..except that I already had a Permacool dual setup plumbed. I swapped out the inserts (proprietary to Amsoil) and mounted the big SDF Cummins size and the BIG BE110 on the permacool mount. The only issue was that the BE110 didn't get much flow until the ff filter got some mileag on it. It was too easy for oil to go through the ff and not the bypass. Once the ff got some accumulation ..then the BE110 got fully warm (hot actually).

Now the difference in filtration of your two selections there aren't as substantial ..so you'll probably have a more balanced flow.

Permacool has everything that you're looking for. Wix/Napa does too ..almost ..they don't offer the dual head ..but they do offer a single head with dual ports (two innie ..two outtie) so you could rig it easy enough if you wanted to keep it to one stop at NAPA.

 

[md_lucky_13]

So I should be safe running the same inlet to both filters, and the same outlet from both filters..

I need to make sure that in my line, the bypass comes first and then the full flow, that way the bypass will get some pressure if the fullflow gets a little use into it.

But, other then that, I do not run any risk of starving the motor of oil?

I already have the dual remote.. I just need the block off plate from the stock location. I called Permacool and I was told that none of their adapters will work for the cummins 1"-16 size thread.. Is this incorrect?

I'm planning on using some pretty nice hoses too, I'm hoping some of the tractor supply places locally have what I am looking for.

 

[Gary Allan]

1156
Fits 1"-16 threads. Designed to fit Dodge Cummins diesel. 1/2" NPT(int) ports. 2-1/2" and 3-1/8" O-rings included.
(U.S. Patent 4,278,275).

Tell them to look at their own web page

They probably thought you meant a remote with 1-16 threads

As far as your oil flow....

Both filters will see the exact same pressure on either side of them. They are in parallel. Only the flow through each of them will vary according to how the oil "sees" them as a resistance. The flow will divide between them. The total resistance MUST be lower then the full flow filter alone.

Think of it this way. You have a 2" pipe with 20 lbs of water pressure on it. Off of that you have two taps ..one a 1/2 line ..the other a 1/4" line. Both the 1/2" and the 1/4" have 20lb pressure on the supply side. Now they flow into a 1" line that has a restriction on it that causes a back pressure. Both the 1/2" line and the 1/4" line will see the 20 lb line pressure ..and the Xlb of downstream pressure ..only the flow will vary between them....AND the flow would be more than just the 1/2" line alone.

 

[md_lucky_13]

Let me see if I understand this, because I REALLY, REALLY do not have a physics/flow mind..

I'm taking 1/2 size draw from the motor to these two filters.. So, at the point that the oil is leaving the motor, it is at the same pressure as the stock oil filter.

When it arrives at the dual plate, the oil is going to get some resitance from the filters themselves, but, because they are in a parallel line, the flow is going to go into filter A, out of filter A, into filter B, and out of filter B..

As long as the two filters combined to not offer more resitance then the stock filter did, then it should be EXACTLY the same. What is getting me is this Xlb of downstream pressure.. Is the Xlb of downstream pressure going to be exactly the same as when it left the block, or is it going to be much different?

If both filters are rated 7-9 GPM respectively (both the 51773 and the 51641) and the stock filter is rated at 12-16 GPM, will I be starving the motor of oil?

Or, will the bypass setting of 8-11 psi on the full flow coupled with the natural bypass ability of the bypass filter ensure that the engine is getting the same amount of oil as stock? Do I run the risk of constantly bypassing both filters, so NEITHER get oil? (I'm assuming that is incorrect since the Amsoil SDF-26 is set at a bypass of 7-9 also).

If it is a difference in the amount of oil flowing from the engine, is it enough to worry about?

 

[md_lucky_13]

Okay..


Well, I spoke with an engineer from Wix..

He basically said that the system I am describing would probably work, and it shouldn't have any problems..

But, at the same time, he also told me that it would be in my better interest to build a system that is very similar to exactly what olympic is describing.. While the system I want to build should work, a system built that way would be much more gooder.

So.. Any cummins experts out there? If I pull that plug on top of the oil filter adapter, will that provide me with enough oil to run over to my bypass? The Wix dealer gave me the part numbers for their base and their filter (and said that their filter had the correct restriction in the filter itself, so no restriction anywhere else would be needed). He also said that I MUST make the return line without having any pressure..

So, where do you guys with Cummins motors get your oil from, and where do you drop it back into the motor at?

Pictures would be Big, Big, Big, Big plus.

 

[Gary Allan]

Do you still intend to use a remote filter setup (fullflow)? If so ..there are ports on both sides/ends of it. You can tap of either one if you're returning to a zero pressure location through your bypass.

This thread may interest you. Other BIG options.

Now the filter is about $45 retail and so is the mount (about $40).

 

[md_lucky_13]

Okay..

1 Final option that I am tossing around in my head right now..

What if I do this instead:

I already have the Dual filter base coming.. I won it on an Ebay auction for dirt. This means that I will have a 3/4-16 threaded base for two filters.

What if I take the oil off the top of the oil filter adapter (there is a small plug on top of there, and as I understand it, it will supply the oil without dropping pressure) and I run the oil over to my dual plate.

This is where my normal bypass would be, and still have the stock filter in its same spot. With the dual remote, I could put 1 51515, which is a full flow filter same as FL1, PH8a, etc. etc. After that filter, I could put my bypass filter 51641.

I would run the return to a non-pressurized spot... Back to the valve cover or something similar (still looking for ideas there from you cummins owners?).

Would THAT system work? I understand that the first full-flow filter would be somewhat useless... But, I already have the base, and I figure that it would be better then nothing at all? (I can pick up those filters for extremely cheap, also).

Would that system cause any problems? I would still have the stock oil filter in place.. The bypass filter would provide the restriction... Would I have to worry about the full flow bursting in that application, or any other negative consequences? I know the full flow 51515 would not be doing much for filtering.. but it should be better then nothing at all, right?


Or, would I be better off not using this dual system and just trying to re-sell it and purchasing a single remote system?

What are the thread sizes of the Amsoil remote filter adapters? I'm still trying to build a system where I have readily available filters from local sources..

 

[Gary Allan]

Okay ..I think that you're missing some links here.

Can I assume (somewhere I missed this) that your adapter is a sandwich style that's used exclusively for bypass setups or perhaps oil temp senders??

That is, it has ONLY one tap and is NOT intended to route the full flow of the engine??

You would not want to run a 51515 on that dual mount. It will just be a leak. You can get two 5/8-18 thread inserts from ebay (they have 3/4-16 threads on one end) and use

Part Number: 51050
UPC Number: 765809510500
Principal Application: Allis-Chalmers, Fiat, Continental, GM, Hyster, Isuzu, Iveco, Towmotor, Other
All Applications
Style: Spin-On Lube Filter
Service: Lube
Type: By-Pass
Media: Paper
Height: 5.178
Outer Diameter Top: 3.660
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 5/8-18
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: None
Burst Pressure-PSI: 380
Max Flow Rate: 1-3 GPM
Nominal Micro Rating: 10

Gasket Diameters
Number O.D. I.D. Thk.
Attached 2.834 2.462 0.200

Buy two of these from this guy - don't expect a break on his S&H Now you can also get a single mount from NAPA for about $5 more ($20) and just change it more often ..or buy two of them and rig up a couple of t's to do the same thing. Since the dual mount will make easier hook up, I'd get the inserts.

 

[Gary Allan]

I still get the impression that you view the dual mount as being two filters "in-line". That is, that the first filter prefilters for the second one. It doesn't ..both filters see the supply and the discharge "manifolds". If you have a 1515 in there and another, the flow will divide between them and exit into a common port/tube/manifold.

You'll see when you closely examine the dual mount.

The oil is travelling up Main St. Some of it takes a left on 51515 Ave. the rest takes a left at 51050 Ave. Then all the traffic heads back downtown on Return Ave.

OH! 51641 is almost as good as 51050 in micron rating. Just use TWO of them.

 

[md_lucky_13]

Well, I'm actually not planning on using an adapter at all..


The plans have changed somewhat since the initial post.. I just don't want to start over again with a new post..

It is my understanding that I can take the oil from a 1/8 plug that sits on top of the STOCK oil filter plate.. There is 1 line that goes to feed the turbo with oil, and right behind it there is another line that is simply plugged from the factor. I have spoke with a couple of cummins owners that used this as their spot to draw the oil from the engine.


Then, I want to route the oil from that spot over to the dual plate. Since I already have the dual plate, I am looking at my options.. It will NOT be receiving the full flow of oil.


Should I use 2 bypass filters at this area? The filter number: 51641 already has the correct 3/4-16 threads, and this filter is rated to the same 10 micron as the one you have listed.

They are about $28 a piece, so I don't know if I want to constantly be replacing both of them at the same time.. That kind of defeats my goal of a cheap, reliable, and readily available bypass filter. That was my reason for looking at the 51515.


I am also looking at the option of getting a reusable stainless steel oil filter for the first filter (the initial costs would be great, but it would be a 1 time cost) and then using the 51641 as the bypass second in the chain..

Why would those run a risk of a leak? (I'm actually asking that question with sincere honesty, not sarcasm). Would it be getting too much oil, or too little?

If I run 2 bypass filters off that head, how often should I replace them?


I'm still considering just ditching this dual remote adapter head and going with a single remote adapter.. But, if I can make the dual do what I want and keep the prices reasonable, I see no reason to get rid of it.

 

[md_lucky_13]

"still get the impression that you view the dual mount as being two filters "in-line". That is, that the first filter prefilters for the second one. It doesn't ..both filters see the supply and the discharge "manifolds". If you have a 1515 in there and another, the flow will divide between them and exit into a common port/tube/manifold."

The light just went off in my head with a loud ding. Thank you!!!!

 

[md_lucky_13]

Which means...

I need to use filters that have the exact same GPM flow, or resitance.

If I do not use filters with the same GPM flow, or resitance, the oil is going to choose to go through the filter with the least resistance... Just like electricity.

So, if I use a stainless-resuable filter, almost ALL the oil will go through it, since it is FAR, FAR easier for the oil to go through it then a bypass filter.

If I use 2 bypass filters with similar GPM, then they BOTH see the same amount of oil at the same time, since they should be very similar in the amount of resitance.

By the 51515 being a "leak," you didn't mean that it would physically leak.. you meant that it would allow all the oil to pass through it instead of the bypass filter.. it would allow the oil to "leak by" the system, without getting proper filtering..
Right?

 

[Gary Allan]

They are about $28 a piece, so I don't know if I want to constantly be replacing both of them at the same time.. That kind of defeats my goal of a cheap, reliable, and readily available bypass filter. That was my reason for looking at the 51515.


They will last twice as long in parallel. The cost, in terms of their effectiveness is identical. If you use a 51515 in parallel to it, you are not going to filter as much oil. It's a "pay me now, or pay me later" type exchange (not in terms of damage, just effectivness).

Why would those run a risk of a leak? (I'm actually asking that question with sincere honesty, not sarcasm). Would it be getting too much oil, or too little?

No, I didn't mean a leak in reality ..but a virtual leak. I'm unsure of the density of your 51641 filter ..but it should be substantial compared to a 51515 and the oil flow will just pass easily through it (51515) instead of going through the 51641. That is, of the small % of oil that you're sending to the dual remote ...the majority of it will probably be going through the 51515. This naturally all "depends". The 51641 appears to have a like volume rating to the 51515 ..yet it's a finer filter (10um) ..but it's also a bigger filter ..so it may be a wash ..but even at the "best case" ..the flow would divide evenely and you would only have 1/2 of your flow (as small % of your total flow) getting filtered to the finer level.

Using our "Main St." example. The traffic has a choice of two roads. 51515 Ave is 5 lanes wide and has no parking. 51641 Ave is a narrow alley and has all kinds of obstackles in the way. Which one is traffic going to flow easier through

Now you can get the impression that ..sure..bypass filters are only supposed to see a small % of the total flow. That's only 'at one time' due to their inability to handle the full flow volume. To be effective they have to maintain the same level of filtration for the entire sump. Ideally, you would have a massive bypass type media that would handle the full flow of the engine and do it all at one time. The problem with that is that the thing would be so big that it wouldn't fit in a common application ..and would be way too expensive for for the interval that you could use it for (aside from other issues like ADBV and bypass valves).

For example that filter I showed you in the other thread is ideal for just about everyone. It has both a full flow and bypass aspects to it. But it costs $45 and is very big. That's more than you would spend in tp and full flows in several years and takes up more room.

 

[md_lucky_13]

Hmm..

Well, I think I have the concept down. Now to hammer out the details.

If I use the 51641 filter on BOTH sides of the adapter.. I should see equal flow to both filters, and it should ensure that oil is being filtered by both filters.

The 51641 is 6.601 inches tall and 4.276 inches wide.

The 51749 is 9.748 inches tall and 4.661. I'm not going to pretend to know the geometry involved in figuring out the volume and surface area of these filters, because I don't..

What I do know is that having two (2) 51641 bypass filters should give me substantially more surface filtering area then the 51749.. So, both filters should last a substantial time before needing replacing (ESPECIALLY since I will still have the stock, full-flow filter).

Is it economically intelligent for someone to purchase the dual base and run two 51641s instead of a single base and a single 51749? I'm willing to bet the answer to that is a simple, **** No.

But.. For someone that already has a dual base? If someone running a 51749 is able to run for X amount of miles on a Cummins Diesel motor before having to change the filter, someone running 2 51641s should be able to match that amount plus a little more?


If I have that understanding right.. Maybe it would be economically effiecent for me to run this system, with two 51641 bypass filters, as long as I could run those filters for a great amount of time.. Say, 20,000 miles?

How long do you normally run a bypass filter before it needs to be changed? If I could run the same oil, do a Full Flow filter change every 10,000 and bypass filter change every 20,000, on the same oil..

$50 for oil/filter change, (I change every 5,000 miles already), into 20k miles (clean oil/filter at 20k) = Cost $200

$50 oil/filter, $60 for bypass filters, $10 for extra Full Flow at 10k, $50 oil/filter and $60 for bypass at 20k to get me back where I started (clean oil/filters again).. $230

Is this system worth the extra $30ish dollars over a span of 20,000 miles in engine protection?