Hydrogen Breakthrough Discovered in Australia.

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Article lacks any detail. Reformation of ammonia and then purification of hydrogen via palladium membrane is not a new concept, and is what aid speculate is being done here, based upon pictures.
 
I have been waiting for the Hydrogen revolution to happen since 2005.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
I have been waiting for the Hydrogen revolution to happen since 2005.


Yeah, I hear you. Same here. The problem is not only manufacturing a hydrogen car that is cost effective. It is supporting them with refueling capabilities. Toyota came out with their Mirai back in 2014. As of the end of 2017 they've sold 5,300 of them globally. I've never seen one, and don't know anyone who has. Or if they're even available here. They start around $60K, which really isn't bad for Fuel Cell technology. Most that have gone through development but never got to production, were slated to cost well into 6 figures. Which make them nothing but Jay Leno toys.

The problem is the same thing you have with electric vehicles, only much worse. And that is where to go to keep them going? And who is going to invest the billions of dollars in a support structure to build Hydrogen refueling stations, and manufacture enough of the stuff to keep them supplied? (Assuming they could sell enough of them). I won't even get into the cost of the Hydrogen fuel itself. Do you think it will be competitive with 87 Octane Regular? Or even electricity from your "garage charging station" for your Nissan Leaf?

Here in Phoenix you'll find gold in the Superstition Mountains before you'll find an E-85 pump, or a Tesla charging station. Hydrogen pumps don't exist. So even if you loved the technology, and wanted one, where could you drive it, if you can't find fuel for it?

Fuel Cell Technology has been around for over half a century. But making it a commercial success in the automotive industry was, is, and continues to be nothing more than a pipe dream. And part of the problem is Hydrogen takes more energy to produce than it makes. Will this or any other "method" circumvent that? I'm not holding my breath.
 
When you have to chemically alter a fuel for transport and then recompose it, it has to add significantly to the cost. Never mind the infrastructure costs to support this fuel. As well, does this technology scale outside the lab.
I had a tough time justifying CNG for a fleet of light trucks, and that is with commercially available components and an existing distribution infrastructure.
Hope it works but I just see a lot of hurdles.
 
Using nitrogen as a "packaging" material for hydrogen is interesting, especially for the export market.

H - atomic mass 1
N Atomic Mass 14

Create hydrogen, through various means at efficiencies of under 20% energy yield (electrolysis), using energy "sources" that have a return on energy invested of 2-4, and themselves have efficiencies of 20% or lower.

Convert that into Ammonia, for ease of transport.

Every tonne of Hydrogen that you transport needs 4.7 tonnes of "packaging" that is discarded at the other end...to move a tonne of hydrogen, you have 5.7 tonnes to transport across the ocean...shipping containers full of bubble wrap.

Funny, industry is heading away from Anhydrous ammonia, for loads of reasons.

But you CAN drive an engine on it..
 
In Silicon Valley, there are lots of Mirais and lots of filling stations.
There are 2 within 2 miles of my house.
Toyota pays for the fuel, which is very expensive.
The Mirai is only sold in a few markets, which is typical of new products like the Mirai and Teslas.

A friend at work has one; he and his wife are not impressed.
 
Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
In Silicon Valley, there are lots of Mirais and lots of filling stations.
There are 2 within 2 miles of my house.
Toyota pays for the fuel, which is very expensive.
The Mirai is only sold in a few markets, which is typical of new products like the Mirai and Teslas.

A friend at work has one; he and his wife are not impressed.


I can certainly understand why.

https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/201...ve-or-free.html
 
Originally Posted By: PimTac
This pertains to the idea of converting hydrogen which would be produced by solar and wind power into ammonia which can then be transported and reconverted back into hydrogen. It sounds interesting.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/hy...section=science


The whole thing is likely feel good fluff . If you are going to make ammonia , use it for fertilizer .

If you are producing electricity via solar or wind , pump it back into the grid . And there by reduce the amount of fossil fuel burned . However , w/o subsidiaries , I think it is questionable if wind or solar are cost effective ? That is a subject that is little discussed . Probably because it is not politically correct to question " green energy " sources .
 
Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
Originally Posted By: PimTac
This pertains to the idea of converting hydrogen which would be produced by solar and wind power into ammonia which can then be transported and reconverted back into hydrogen. It sounds interesting.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/hy...section=science


The whole thing is likely feel good fluff . If you are going to make ammonia , use it for fertilizer .

If you are producing electricity via solar or wind , pump it back into the grid . And there by reduce the amount of fossil fuel burned . However , w/o subsidiaries , I think it is questionable if wind or solar are cost effective ? That is a subject that is little discussed . Probably because it is not politically correct to question " green energy " sources .


The problem with wind is that most often when you need it, it isn't producing and conversely, when you don't, it is. Then you are trying to give it away at negative market prices at 3AM on a Wednesday and having to pay for curtailment because you can't dump all of it. See Ontario market for a shining example of that Gong Show.

Today in Ontario, our >4,400MW of wind started off producing 160MW. That's up from yesterday where it was producing 10MW. That's not a typo. But, as I'm typing this, we've gained a bit of wind and are now up to 740MW! Of course to accommodate the differential between potential generation and actual, we are burning Natural Gas, 4,331MW right now to be precise. That's on top of the nukes that were producing 10,031MW this AM when the wind was producing 160MW, and 10,313MW now, following demand. Hydro-Electric, performing baseload with the nukes, started off at 3,306MW and is presently producing 3,410MW.
 
Anything new would be good to take away some of the power of the oil industry...
 
Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
In Silicon Valley, there are lots of Mirais and lots of filling stations.
There are 2 within 2 miles of my house.
Toyota pays for the fuel, which is very expensive.
The Mirai is only sold in a few markets, which is typical of new products like the Mirai and Teslas.

A friend at work has one; he and his wife are not impressed.


I have only seen 1 around Sunnyvale, and last time I read on the news the wild fire may cause a shortage of hydrogen supply...

In 2018 I'd say I'd rather pick a Tesla over a hydrogen fuel cell car.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
In Silicon Valley, there are lots of Mirais and lots of filling stations.
There are 2 within 2 miles of my house.
Toyota pays for the fuel, which is very expensive.
The Mirai is only sold in a few markets, which is typical of new products like the Mirai and Teslas.

A friend at work has one; he and his wife are not impressed.


I have only seen 1 around Sunnyvale, and last time I read on the news the wild fire may cause a shortage of hydrogen supply...

In 2018 I'd say I'd rather pick a Tesla over a hydrogen fuel cell car.


Such vehicles are way too expensive .

We owned a used 2012 Nissan Leaf & liked it , but we went into it knowing it was an in town only car( few to no public charging stations , no quick charge ) .

Now if I went electric , I would look at the Chevy Bolt or a plug in hybrid , like the Chevy Volt .
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
In 2018 I'd say I'd rather pick a Tesla over a hydrogen fuel cell car.


The biggest problem with these Hydrogen Fuel Cell Toyota's, comes after 3 years when the "free" fuel runs out. The car will become all but worthless. The operating cost per mile with the owner buying the pressurized Hydrogen fuel would exceed the cost per mile of a Bugatti Veyron. In a vehicle that looks and performs like a Prius. That you can't leave the city with, because there is nowhere to fill it up.
 
Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
Now if I went electric , I would look at the Chevy Bolt or a plug in hybrid , like the Chevy Volt .


I was using Tesla as a comparison due to price tag of hydrogen cars. Yes, I'd get a Bolt or Volt instead of Mirai. Mirai's MSRP is $58k.

Originally Posted By: billt460
The biggest problem with these Hydrogen Fuel Cell Toyota's, comes after 3 years when the "free" fuel runs out. The car will become all but worthless. The operating cost per mile with the owner buying the pressurized Hydrogen fuel would exceed the cost per mile of a Bugatti Veyron. In a vehicle that looks and performs like a Prius. That you can't leave the city with, because there is nowhere to fill it up.


The only reason I can think of that people will buy a HFC car is R&D or teardown analysis. My bet is 99.99% of the people are leasing them instead of buying.
 
The Mirai is an experiment; we will see how it goes. I ain't buying one, but kudos to Toyota for trying.
By the way, that Edmunds article is bogus.
It uses the CA price for H but uses US price for regular gas. $2.14 per gallon.
Regular is $3.50 in around here.

All experiments like this are expensive.
Yes, most people are leasing. At 1st, you could only lease; that may have changed.
We leased wifey's 2018 RX450h because hybrid technology changes quickly. I hate leases...

The Toyota Mirai, Honda Clarity and the like are pioneers in new car technology.
But hydrogen power is certainly not new.
Airplanes have been built, but don't seem viable.
Submarines are a different story...
Where will it go?

Just my 2 cents...
 
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