What vehicle? For example on my 2004 Honda Civic with OEM recommendation of 10k OCI's normal with conventional oil (made by EM as a stardard) 5k oil analysis intervals is almost total overkill from a cost standpoint. Seems you really want to know if the oil is still good at 15,000 to the 20,000 mark.
How often should I UOA my 20k mi OCI?
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No sampling between 10K and 20K is what would worry me. I have reservations that 20K is doable. Run it to 10K and see where you are at unless you suspect an engine health problem. If not a check at 5K wouldn't reveal much. Around 10K to 12K might be the breaking point so I'd want to keep a closer check from there on.
I think if you're going to spend cash on UOA's you're defeating the whole purpose of the extended drain.
No?
Am I missing something?
Dan
No?
Am I missing something?
Dan
I'm about 4k mi into my 20k mi OCI with M1 0W-40 & 2-1/2oz A-Rx. My original plan was to UOA at 10k mi & change the filter, then UOA again at 20k mi (at which point I'd change the filter again & add 10oz A-Rx for a cleaning phase of 2k to 4k mi).
Now that I'm getting close to 5k mi on the oil, I'm thinking about UOAs every 5k mi instead. With the A-Rx maintenance dose in there, is there anything extra I can learn by sampling the oil 4x that I can't by sampling only twice?
Waddaya think?
Now that I'm getting close to 5k mi on the oil, I'm thinking about UOAs every 5k mi instead. With the A-Rx maintenance dose in there, is there anything extra I can learn by sampling the oil 4x that I can't by sampling only twice?
Waddaya think?
No. He is only going to do the UOAs during this one interval to establish if such a long interval is safe. Once he establishes that, he can do 20K mile OCIs from then on without doing UOAs, because he already knows that it works and that it's safe. So, you see, it's a one-time thing. Without it, he wouldn't know how far he can safely stretch it.
Well, the more samples, the more data.
If you only do a UOA at 10K and then at 20K, you may find out that at 10K the oil was still OK to use, but at 20K it was shot, and practically you don't know whether it got shot at 12K, 15K, or 18K, or just at 20K.
I'd probably sample at 5K, 10K, 14K, 17K, and 20K.
I think I'd sample at 10K and again at 15K. You synthetic guys are much braver than me with this talks of the same oil still in the crankcase at 20K.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this!
Thanks for the input. It does seem like all I need are a few samples after I pass the 10k mi mark. That would definitely tell me what I want to know from an "is it safe?" standpoint. OK, so if I do it this way, I'm thinking maybe 12k/16k/20k. Or maybe 13k/17k/20k? 15k/18k/20k? (yeesh...) I'm thinking I should wait until whenever I take the first sample to also change the filter, rather than changing it at 10k like I had originally planned.
The other side of the analysis coin is, as Quattro Pete put it, "more data
". Since I'm going this far on this flavor, is there anything else we might want to know along the way?
I started with 2-1/2 oz of A-Rx, but I haven't added any more since the initial change. It's needed about 24 oz of top-up over the past 4,500 mi, so let's say there's about 2 oz A-Rx in there now. To keep it at 2 oz, from this point on I'll add an extra 1/2 oz of A-Rx for each top-up qt of 0W-40 I add. Let's also say it'll use 1 qt per 5k mi over the course of this 20k mi OCI. The sump only holds 4 qts to begin with, so that's one change's-worth of fresh oil added throughout this interval.
With the extra oil & A-Rx, it's definitely not a "closed system" test of the oil. And my driving habits have changed considerably since my last UOA on this car. I now have a 65 mi daily round-trip commute & drive about 16k mi/yr. That makes this a 15-month OCI instead of a 40-month OCI on my previous schedule. So is there anything to be gained from more data? Are wear-metal readings & viscosity retention moot under these circumstances?
Oh, & I still won't have cleaned the K&N air filter by the time this OCI is done. It was last cleaned at 150k mi (20k mi on the filter), & the car's now only at 180k mi. I figger cleaning it once every 50k mi is plenty, & that puts it outside the 194k mi endpoint of this OCI. I will be doing the spark plugs within the next month, & adding my once-every-30k-mi-dose of fuel system cleaner at the same time. I might also decide to change the valve cover gasket this summer, but I won't know until I have both the motivation & the spare time. (A-Rx did a pretty good job of stopping my vcg leak, so I'm not as motivated as I used to be.)
Can anyone add anything else to this? Am I overlooking some obvious data I (we?) can use?
Thanks for the input. It does seem like all I need are a few samples after I pass the 10k mi mark. That would definitely tell me what I want to know from an "is it safe?" standpoint. OK, so if I do it this way, I'm thinking maybe 12k/16k/20k. Or maybe 13k/17k/20k? 15k/18k/20k? (yeesh...) I'm thinking I should wait until whenever I take the first sample to also change the filter, rather than changing it at 10k like I had originally planned.
The other side of the analysis coin is, as Quattro Pete put it, "more data
I started with 2-1/2 oz of A-Rx, but I haven't added any more since the initial change. It's needed about 24 oz of top-up over the past 4,500 mi, so let's say there's about 2 oz A-Rx in there now. To keep it at 2 oz, from this point on I'll add an extra 1/2 oz of A-Rx for each top-up qt of 0W-40 I add. Let's also say it'll use 1 qt per 5k mi over the course of this 20k mi OCI. The sump only holds 4 qts to begin with, so that's one change's-worth of fresh oil added throughout this interval.
With the extra oil & A-Rx, it's definitely not a "closed system" test of the oil. And my driving habits have changed considerably since my last UOA on this car. I now have a 65 mi daily round-trip commute & drive about 16k mi/yr. That makes this a 15-month OCI instead of a 40-month OCI on my previous schedule. So is there anything to be gained from more data? Are wear-metal readings & viscosity retention moot under these circumstances?
Oh, & I still won't have cleaned the K&N air filter by the time this OCI is done. It was last cleaned at 150k mi (20k mi on the filter), & the car's now only at 180k mi. I figger cleaning it once every 50k mi is plenty, & that puts it outside the 194k mi endpoint of this OCI. I will be doing the spark plugs within the next month, & adding my once-every-30k-mi-dose of fuel system cleaner at the same time. I might also decide to change the valve cover gasket this summer, but I won't know until I have both the motivation & the spare time. (A-Rx did a pretty good job of stopping my vcg leak, so I'm not as motivated as I used to be.)
Can anyone add anything else to this? Am I overlooking some obvious data I (we?) can use?
Triple_Se7en
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I'm a first & last owner of my vehicles. If your ride was mine, that oil would be replaced at 10K.
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Here's the way I approached extended OCI's as far as figuring how far I could go.
I did 10k ..changed oil and filters ..did UOA
I did 12.5k changed oil and filters ..did UOA
From that (and with confirmation from Terry) I knew that the combo was good for 15-18k ..or about 1 year. In a 4 season climate, this may be the sensible limit to any OCI.
I mean the cost of the oil change is not that much and I just "reset the counter" for every evolution to a higher OCI. Once the OCI spans over a year ..then an annual sample is a good idea just to see if any issues are present.
I did 10k ..changed oil and filters ..did UOA
I did 12.5k changed oil and filters ..did UOA
From that (and with confirmation from Terry) I knew that the combo was good for 15-18k ..or about 1 year. In a 4 season climate, this may be the sensible limit to any OCI.
I mean the cost of the oil change is not that much and I just "reset the counter" for every evolution to a higher OCI. Once the OCI spans over a year ..then an annual sample is a good idea just to see if any issues are present.
OK, sorry for the confusion guys. All my vehicle info is listed in the UOA I linked in my previous post, but for immediate reference:
It's a 1990 Saab 900 base model 3-dr 5 spd with 178,500 miles. It has a 2.0L 16v 4 cyl non-turbo engine with a 4 qt oil capacity. I'm using the larger Purolator PureOne synthetic media oil filter (the one sized comparable to the original-spec ACDelco PF13, rather than the 40% smaller current-spec ACD PF53) & the drop-in K&N air filter. It has electronic fuel injection & gets 87 octane gasoline (the recommended grade) from various sources. It was getting about 28-29 mpg during the winter, but now it's getting about 30-31 mpg. I was using the hotter NKG BCP5ES plugs during the 2 yrs where it only got short-trip service, but I've been using the next-colder NGK BCP6ES for the past year that I've been commuting again. Both plugs are spec'd in the owner's manual. I live an hour north of Denver, so our altitude is a little over a mile high (not much combustion air & lots of hills!) & our climate ranges from winter lows around minus 10°F to summer highs around 100°F.
The UOA linked in my previous post was taken immediately before I changed filters & ran Auto-Rx for 4,500 miles in that same 15W-50/mix oil. I then ran Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40 as the rinse oil for 4,000 miles. This M1 0W-40 went in at that point (174,000 miles). After I finish this 20k mi OCI, I'll swap filters again & run a 2nd A-Rx treatment for 2k-3k mi & D1300S again for the 3k-4k mi rinse.
I'm not sure any of this info matters for the questions I'm asking, but here it is (with a little additional info) just so everyone knows what's what.
It's a 1990 Saab 900 base model 3-dr 5 spd with 178,500 miles. It has a 2.0L 16v 4 cyl non-turbo engine with a 4 qt oil capacity. I'm using the larger Purolator PureOne synthetic media oil filter (the one sized comparable to the original-spec ACDelco PF13, rather than the 40% smaller current-spec ACD PF53) & the drop-in K&N air filter. It has electronic fuel injection & gets 87 octane gasoline (the recommended grade) from various sources. It was getting about 28-29 mpg during the winter, but now it's getting about 30-31 mpg. I was using the hotter NKG BCP5ES plugs during the 2 yrs where it only got short-trip service, but I've been using the next-colder NGK BCP6ES for the past year that I've been commuting again. Both plugs are spec'd in the owner's manual. I live an hour north of Denver, so our altitude is a little over a mile high (not much combustion air & lots of hills!) & our climate ranges from winter lows around minus 10°F to summer highs around 100°F.
The UOA linked in my previous post was taken immediately before I changed filters & ran Auto-Rx for 4,500 miles in that same 15W-50/mix oil. I then ran Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40 as the rinse oil for 4,000 miles. This M1 0W-40 went in at that point (174,000 miles). After I finish this 20k mi OCI, I'll swap filters again & run a 2nd A-Rx treatment for 2k-3k mi & D1300S again for the 3k-4k mi rinse.
I'm not sure any of this info matters for the questions I'm asking, but here it is (with a little additional info) just so everyone knows what's what.
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So this is the first run with M1 0w-40? Why the snap right up to 20k? Is this a test? What I'm asking is what dialed 20k into your crosshairs??
You didn't happen to spend any time in the middle east or in associated 3rd world nations, have you? They kinda skip a bit of intermediate terrain at arriving in their reaction formation to certain things (I'm just kidding
)
Do you just want to do a 20k OCI? If so, M1 0w-40 would not be my choice. M1 T&SUV would be a much wiser choice, IMHO.
You didn't happen to spend any time in the middle east or in associated 3rd world nations, have you? They kinda skip a bit of intermediate terrain at arriving in their reaction formation to certain things (I'm just kidding
Do you just want to do a 20k OCI? If so, M1 0w-40 would not be my choice. M1 T&SUV would be a much wiser choice, IMHO.
Uh, actually the UOA will only show how the oil held up during that particular time would it not? Example would be, say, the engine develops a coolant leak into the engine after he has done his UOA and changed to new oil. Not sure how many mile you are driving, but most people average 15000-20000 a year. That coolant leak could damage/destroy the engine in that time period.
i am not sure about doing further oil analysis myself. While the data is fun to crunch i am not really convinced it makes a big difference money wise. To get a basic analysis the cost is around $20. A TBN is another $10 which would indicate to me if i needed to change the oil soon.
So the total for the oil analysis information is around $30. I can buy German Castrol (Go Elves) for around $4 a quart, a filter for around $8. So for $24 plus a bit of my time i can change the oil to fresh elves brew, i mean GC. I realize this doesnt alert me to possible increased wear or anti-freeze contamination.
I check the fluid levels frequently and think i would pick up on a decrease in the coolant level. Changing the oil on a OCI of 3000-5000 should alleviate any oil related wear issues. I realize OCI's of 3000-5000 miles on synthetic oil is probably overkill, but my primary reason for running synthetic is high temp protection (Las Vegas, temps in 100-110 F in summer time).
What are other reasons a UOA would benefit me, either on a cost basis or caring for my vehicle in a better manner?
darrell
sin city
I certainly understand the desire on your part to do long intervals. I was also in that mode at one time. I basically did 10K though.
But from a practical standpoint..I just don't think that it makes a whole lot of sense going that distance. The oil will build up smaller particles of abrasives that are too small to be trapped in the filter. Also once you establish that 20K is O.K.; going that distance with Oil analysis is asking for trouble. A coolant leak..even a small one..will be a real problem if left go for that amount of time. If you went with a good quality dino and did 6K or so..you probably would be better off. And the new GF-4/SM oils I think are gonna do a great job.
And for those who talk about the environment and changing oil frequently scheesch..In 6K miles the average motorist sends 300 gallons of hydrocarbons into the air. And we are worried about a lousy gallon of oil that's likely to be recycled???
But like I said..I understand the need to experiment. I am an addicted oil mixing junkie and I feel your pain.
But from a practical standpoint..I just don't think that it makes a whole lot of sense going that distance. The oil will build up smaller particles of abrasives that are too small to be trapped in the filter. Also once you establish that 20K is O.K.; going that distance with Oil analysis is asking for trouble. A coolant leak..even a small one..will be a real problem if left go for that amount of time. If you went with a good quality dino and did 6K or so..you probably would be better off. And the new GF-4/SM oils I think are gonna do a great job.
And for those who talk about the environment and changing oil frequently scheesch..In 6K miles the average motorist sends 300 gallons of hydrocarbons into the air. And we are worried about a lousy gallon of oil that's likely to be recycled???
But like I said..I understand the need to experiment. I am an addicted oil mixing junkie and I feel your pain.
I would like to know why so many don't feel that 0w40 or 0w30 M1(SL of course) is not adequate for long drains??
I believe they meet the long drain requiremnts. Yeah 20k is alot further than I would try on the first run but certainly a year12-15k is doable with a midlife filter change and top off. Isn't it? IS there something horribly wrong with these oils or is it a perception about "heartiness" that traps one into a rut of thought?
I am not trying to be contrary, I just want to know why I keep seeing this.
I believe they meet the long drain requiremnts. Yeah 20k is alot further than I would try on the first run but certainly a year12-15k is doable with a midlife filter change and top off. Isn't it? IS there something horribly wrong with these oils or is it a perception about "heartiness" that traps one into a rut of thought?
I am not trying to be contrary, I just want to know why I keep seeing this.
My name is Al and I'm an oilcaholic.
We've already seen some long very successful OCIs on this site. If you used the new Mobil EP with some make up oil (say a quart) 20,000 miles could be doable. And if this gentleman's experiment is a success then we'll have some real world 'data' to give others confidence in long drains.
I am looking forward to seeing the results.
I am looking forward to seeing the results.
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