How much ZDDP do I need?

[Truckedup]

Originally Posted By: TurboTravis

You're wasting money using a boutique oil in a 1990 305 Chevy SBC (coming from someone that has owned several).

Yes, you're wasting money using boutique oil in any moderately built 50's to 80's OHV V-8....The engines are just not that stressed like a smaller modern engine...It's a known fact a Gen 1 Chevy small block can support over 500 HP with the stock oiling system and 55 psi oil pressure...and that's on 80's Dino oil...Just use an oil with around 1200 zinc and phos...Readily available and affordable Rotella T4 for example.....If you want some Moly in your ZDDP oil, go with Valvoline ZR 1...

 

[meborder]

Quote:

...Just use an oil with around 1200 zinc and phos...Readily available and affordable Rotella T4 for example.....If you want some Moly in your ZDDP oil, go with Valvoline ZR 1...

Perhaps some of you missed the point .... This is what I'm trying to find. I need a high zinc 5w30. So far all I can find is boutique stuff. T4 doesn't come in 5w30 Vr1 doesn't come in 5w30 Recent diesel oils have been reformulated with lower levels of zddp making it harder to find something suitable for higher spring pressures. After I get this broken in, it will get the oil changed every 2 years and will likely have about 100 miles on the odometer. It's a plow truck and gas powered wheelbarrow. It drives as far backwards as forwards so it the only miles it gets is when I drive it to the gas station to get fuel. 50-60 dollars worth of oil every 2 years is not going to break me, but I'm all for a cheaper oil. I'll look into the Mobil 1 0w40. If the zinc is in that 1200 range that will probably be my new oil.

 

[BrocLuno]

Lots of HDEO's have >1,000 PPM. You prolly don't want to go back in there (?), but I'd think about changing the springs (again). That is almost the prefect cam for Z28 springs which can be had on eBay used for little money. They are mild enough for most oils. You do have a bit more spring than needed ... If your wiring is real good and you have a hot battery, you could live with a HDEO 15W-40 such as Mystic JT-8 which is 1,200 PPM. With those springs, that is what you are shooting for. I have used it successfully on a few flat tappets http://pqiadata.org/Mystik15W40.html The above mentioned M1 is an alternative oil. Those springs were recommended for kids who want to buzz the motor and not incur valve float. Not really great for a work truck ...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: meborder

T4 doesn't come in 5w30 Vr1 doesn't come in 5w30

The change of Defy back to an ILSAC rated lube hasn't helped, either. I agree that finding an ordinary 5w-30 with high zinc (and not $12 a litre) is problematic, to say the least.

 

[BrocLuno]

Yeah, but 5W-40's are easy to find Never met an SBC that did not love the HDEO

 

[spj]

Zddp is awesome..... till it logs your cat.

 

[spasm3]

Amsoil HDD as A-Harmon suggested.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: meborder

I'll look into the Mobil 1 0w40. If the zinc is in that 1200 range that will probably be my new oil.

Mobil 1 zinc levels here_(PDF). M1 0W40 FS = 1100 ppm zinc M1 5W40 TDT = 1300 ppm zinc Both are listed as API SN plus many other higher quality specs. Dated March 2017. Fill 'ya boots!

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: spj

..... till it logs your cat.

When cutting wood, I always make sure children and pets are safely out of the way. But seriously, Euro cars have been using and burning 1100ppm oil for decades, and their exhaust cats seem to last just as long as any other car.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SR5

Originally Posted By: spj

..... till it logs your cat.

When cutting wood, I always make sure children and pets are safely out of the way. But seriously, Euro cars have been using and burning 1100ppm oil for decades, and their exhaust cats seem to last just as long as any other car.

It's a circular argument. ILSAC oils, and the manufacturers insisting that 1qt/1,000 miles is "normal" oil consumption means that you have to put downward pressure on phosphorous for every non oil burning engine on the roads. Thus the different limits for 40 grades, which no automaker specs (meaning the US big three, and the Japanese).

 

[johnD2]

I dumped a bottle of rislone zddp in my last oil change on the silverado , pyb 10w40.

 

[BrocLuno]

CAT's lasting has to do with oil control, not ZDDP levels. CAT's may ash cap before they die of Zn Ph poisoning ...

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

It's a circular argument. ILSAC oils, and the manufacturers insisting that 1qt/1,000 miles is "normal" oil consumption means that you have to put downward pressure on phosphorous for every non oil burning engine on the roads. Thus the different limits for 40 grades, which no automaker specs (meaning the US big three, and the Japanese).

Yep I hear you. Run my car on a 40 grade and the oil level sits on full the whole OCI. No top up necessary and no concerns with high Zinc / Phos levels.

 

[Truckedup]

Originally Posted By: meborder

Quote:

...Just use an oil with around 1200 zinc and phos...Readily available and affordable Rotella T4 for example.....If you want some Moly in your ZDDP oil, go with Valvoline ZR 1...

Perhaps some of you missed the point .... This is what I'm trying to find. I need a high zinc 5w30. So far all I can find is boutique stuff. T4 doesn't come in 5w30 Vr1 doesn't come in 5w30 Recent diesel oils have been reformulated with lower levels of zddp making it harder to find something suitable for higher spring pressures. After I get this broken in, it will get the oil changed every 2 years and will likely have about 100 miles on the odometer. It's a plow truck and gas powered wheelbarrow. It drives as far backwards as forwards so it the only miles it gets is when I drive it to the gas station to get fuel. 50-60 dollars worth of oil every 2 years is not going to break me, but I'm all for a cheaper oil. I'll look into the Mobil 1 0w40. If the zinc is in that 1200 range that will probably be my new oil.

Again, a 5-30 may be to light for a Gen 1 SBC....This info on Rotella is lifted from the Bob is the oil guy site from last year....I don't know if Shell has changed it in the last year... Rotella data

 

[vintageant]

UOAs here show Mobil 1 0w40 zinc levels to be 700-1100 range. If you need higher, add a little ZDDP MAXX

 

[MolaKule]

You might consider this: https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g27.pdf A decent level of ZDDP and with a thick film.

 

[meborder]

Originally Posted By: SR5

Originally Posted By: meborder

I'll look into the Mobil 1 0w40. If the zinc is in that 1200 range that will probably be my new oil.

Mobil 1 zinc levels here_(PDF). M1 0W40 FS = 1100 ppm zinc M1 5W40 TDT = 1300 ppm zinc Both are listed as API SN plus many other higher quality specs. Dated March 2017. Fill 'ya boots!

The 5w30 tdt would fit the bill nicely. And is easy to find. More zddp than the 0w40 to boot. Any other 5w40s known for higher zddp content?

Originally Posted By: spj

Zddp is awesome..... till it logs your cat.

No cats, so no worries. Just flowtech headers, flowtech true duals and thrush welded mufflers. https://youtu.be/yUqZGXhpUFo The rest of the truck is a complete turd...

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Dont worry about the zinc. If the cam wants to go it'll go regardless. We killed junk aftermarket cams in the 70's with super high ZDDP oils. didn't matter. Auto mans don't want you sneaking/running high ash oils in your new cars so they are mostly gone off the market. Thats why YEARS ago I used YARDMAN synthetic snowblower oil in my Toyota for fun. rna good. You can actually feel the caressing and padding of the piston when it turns around. Smoozzz!

 

[fraso]

There's some good advice given in this topic. There is no need to run stiffer springs than recommended by your cam manufacturer. Excessive spring pressure doesn't benefit camshaft life. HDEO is an excellent choice for older engines with flat-tappet valve trains. High levels of ZDDP don't necessarily contribute to greater valve train protection because the ZDDP layer doesn't become thicker with higher ZDDP concentrations. According to a GM Techlink service bulletin (December 2007), Bob Olree GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group), excessive amounts of ZDP is not beneficial:

Originally Posted By: "Bob Olree"

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

The current CJ-4 and CK-4 categories phosphorus limit is 1200 ppm and this concentration has been found to work well to protect flat tappet camshafts. ZDDP additive manufacturer ZPlus also suggests a target of 1200 ppm of phosphorus: see ZDDPlus™ Tech Brief #2 - ZDDP and Cam Wear: Just Another Engine Oil Myth? An important consideration in choosing an oil is to make sure that it not more viscous than necessary. While heavier grades tend to have better HTHS ratings, they also tend to not flow as well in cold temperatures. If you notice that your oil pressure is taking longer to come up in cold weather, you should probably be using thinner oil. While your pressure is building, there is more of a chance that the valve train in the boundary or mixed lubrication regimes and relying on the ZDDP tribofilm for protection. If you're looking for a 30-grade HDEO, remember that these dual rated oils (API CK-4/SN) have a maximum of 800 ppm of phosphorus. For 30-grade oils, look for ones that meet CK-4 and are suitable for SN. PC Duron SHP 10W-30 meets Ford WSS-M2C171-D, which means it has 1000+ ppm of phosphorus. See Engine Wear

 

[BrocLuno]

Uh, SBC's do not lube the cam by "flow". They rely entirely on sling oil off the crank. Cold engines rely entirely on existing film strength until the oil starts getting thrown at the cam. With normal wear and stock bearing clearances, a 30 grade (hot) is appropriate. The W grade is about your local climate. This a snow truck, so we'll assume bad cold starting conditions ... Begging to a 5W will get you nothing. The 5W-30's are CAFE oils. If you really need a multi, go 0W-30.