How is Fiat going

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: bigjl

And since Ford have been stopped from damaging Jaguar Land Rover with their penny pinching and car design by committee Tata have invested properly.

Thank goodness that Ford was outed in time before JLR was banckrupted.


Do you really think Jaguar would have survived without Ford?

I understand Ford didn't do Jaguar many favors when it came to product, but Ford had deep pockets that kept Jaguar chugging along far longer than it would have as an independent automaker.

Ford acquired Jaguar in 1989. Look at the quality of car Jaguar was making in 1989. Was that sustainable without a parent company? No.


Agreed. The Brits have proven themselves incapable of running car companies successfully.

The strange thing is that the Japanese and the French, and now the Germans and the Indians are successful at building vehicles in Britain.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: HyundaiGuy

I love it when people make remarks like this and the Yugo remark above. Why? It shows cluelessness.

Our Fiats have been completely trouble free. My Abarth is a blast to drive.

The Yugo may have been a Fiat design. So what? It isn't 1986 anymore.



Come on- everyone knows that owners aren't a reliable source for information about a particular brand.
The non-owners who read about the cars third or fourth hand on the internet are the real experts- just ask them!

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: HyundaiGuy

I love it when people make remarks like this and the Yugo remark above. Why? It shows cluelessness.

Our Fiats have been completely trouble free. My Abarth is a blast to drive.

The Yugo may have been a Fiat design. So what? It isn't 1986 anymore.




Come on- everyone knows that owners aren't a reliable source for information about a particular brand.
The non-owners who read about the cars third or fourth hand on the internet are the real experts- just ask them!


I hate to trot out JD Power numbers because it just invites an argument from people who own low-ranked models. Everybody on the internet knows better than JDP

If anyone can find a different comprehensive assessment of vehicle quality, I'll listen. Who does JDP get their info from? Oh, right: Owners.

Until then... Fiat is at the bottom of the JDP IQS. Not by a small amount, either. It is the uncontested bottom-champion of IQS.

Cue anecdotal evidence that disagree with this in 3... 2... 1

 

[aa1986]

^ well put

 

[tom slick]

Fiat also merged Case New Holland (CNH) making them a major player in agricultural machinery.

 

[earlyre]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: HyundaiGuy

I love it when people make remarks like this and the Yugo remark above. Why? It shows cluelessness.

Our Fiats have been completely trouble free. My Abarth is a blast to drive.

The Yugo may have been a Fiat design. So what? It isn't 1986 anymore.




Come on- everyone knows that owners aren't a reliable source for information about a particular brand.
The non-owners who read about the cars third or fourth hand on the internet are the real experts- just ask them!


I hate to trot out JD Power numbers because it just invites an argument from people who own low-ranked models. Everybody on the internet knows better than JDP

If anyone can find a different comprehensive assessment of vehicle quality, I'll listen. Who does JDP get their info from? Oh, right: Owners.

Until then... Fiat is at the bottom of the JDP IQS. Not by a small amount, either. It is the uncontested bottom-champion of IQS.

Cue anecdotal evidence that disagree with this in 3... 2... 1


My only question, do those jdp rankings involve fiat owners worldwide, or just USA? I ask because, every 500 sold in the states is made in a Mexican Chrysler factory.

 

[Merkava_4]

The Fiat 500e is very popular here in Clovis. You just plug it in to charge while you're asleep.

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Who in the right mind would buy a Fiat anything?


I'd buy a Fiat if I had the chance, the Fiat LaFerrari is one of the first that springs to mind.

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: aa1986
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: bigjl

And since Ford have been stopped from damaging Jaguar Land Rover with their penny pinching and car design by committee Tata have invested properly.

Thank goodness that Ford was outed in time before JLR was banckrupted.


Do you really think Jaguar would have survived without Ford?

I understand Ford didn't do Jaguar many favors when it came to product, but Ford had deep pockets that kept Jaguar chugging along far longer than it would have as an independent automaker.

Ford acquired Jaguar in 1989. Look at the quality of car Jaguar was making in 1989. Was that sustainable without a parent company? No.


Agreed. The Brits have proven themselves incapable of running car companies successfully.

The strange thing is that the Japanese and the French, and now the Germans and the Indians are successful at building vehicles in Britain.


Lotus and Caterham have been around for many, many years and continue to put out the same wild sports cars they always have. Ariel and BAC are the new kids on the block, but both are continuing to trade and selling enough cars to keep going. Noble too are English, along with McLaren, and they all produce exceptional vehicles.

Maybe you aren't familiar with those companies, the focus on driver involvement and manual gearboxes probably stop you from even considering them.

How many American car companies are there? Chrysler and GM are now foreign owned interests, which leaves you with...Ford and...?

 

[Vikas]

GM are now foreign owned interests? Huh??

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Who in the right mind would buy a Fiat anything?
Exactly. Even a VW as a daily driver is scary enough

Any car I own better be able to not even flinch about going over 200,000 miles. I don't know much about Fiat, but I'd be afraid to attempt to pile some miles on one.


Me too. On both counts.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Rated by Consumer Union as much worse than average as a pre owned vehicle. The 500 currently sold in this country is a waste of natural resources. The Fiat badge will be not be around long in the US. Just as before. There are too many better choices.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

The 500 Abarth looks like it'd be fun for a day or two. Then, I'm not sure I see a point.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: Olas

Lotus and Caterham have been around for many, many years and continue to put out the same wild sports cars they always have.


Really? You're going to cite Lotus as a stellar example of a well-run British automaker? LOTUS ISN'T BRITISH! Lotus is owned by Proton, a Malaysian company. Honestly, that's probably what's keeping them alive: A parent company with deeper pockets. Do I sense a theme here?

Lets ignore that Lotus is owned by the Malaysians and look at their recent history instead. Dany Bahar: What a great decision that was! Even without Bahar (he was ousted in 2012), what has Lotus done since? Absolutely nothing. No new cars, just a stagnant line-up of the Toyota Camry-powered Evora and the ancient Elise/Exige.

 

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Lotus and Caterham have been around for many, many years and continue to put out the same wild sports cars they always have. Ariel and BAC are the new kids on the block, but both are continuing to trade and selling enough cars to keep going. Noble too are English, along with McLaren, and they all produce exceptional vehicles.

Maybe you aren't familiar with those companies, the focus on driver involvement and manual gearboxes probably stop you from even considering them.

How many American car companies are there? Chrysler and GM are now foreign owned interests, which leaves you with...Ford and...?


Sure I've heard of those companies. They are very small volume and strictly for enthusiasts.

The point I was making is that Britain hasn't been successful in running it's own car industry compared to all the countries it should compare itself to eg Germany, France, Italy, USA, Japan. It's an interesting anomaly especially when you consider almost all those countries have successfully manufactured vehicles in the UK.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
Oh yeah.

And since Ford have been stopped from damaging Jaguar Land Rover with their penny pinching and car design by committee Tata have invested properly.

The new Ingenium engines are the cleanest in their segment at the moment and are being built in Jaguar own engine plant.

A new plant in Brazil will make vehicles for South America, not sure if they will also be exporting to North America but I would think it is likely.

Another plant is being built for the Asian markets.

Thank goodness that Ford was outed in time before JLR was banckrupted.


The Pre-Ford Jaguars were not all that great, At least not in U.S. climate. Rubber parts dry-rot FAST, The Lucas electrical system are plagued with problems, The only parts in the drivetrain that DIDN'T leak were made by General Motors.

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
The 500 Abarth looks like it'd be fun for a day or two. Then, I'm not sure I see a point.


My wife has put over 16k miles on her Abarth in the 2.5 years that she has owned it.
She still thinks that it's a full on riot every time she fires it up, and goes for a drive.

Oh, and it hasn't had any mechanical failures in that period of time.

You're obviously not Fiat's target audience.

BC.

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
I hate to trot out JD Power numbers because it just invites an argument from people who own low-ranked models. Everybody on the internet knows better than JDP

If anyone can find a different comprehensive assessment of vehicle quality, I'll listen. Who does JDP get their info from? Oh, right: Owners.


Here I come to blow holes into your argument.

How many owners of Fiat products does JD Power send surveys to?
All of them? You know that's not true.

How do they select which owners to send a survey to?
My wife has owned two Fiat's since their return to the US market, and she hasn't received anything from JD Power about either of her cars.

Out of all the Fiat vehicle owners that they send surveys to, what is the actual response rate? How many fully fill out the survey, versus only partially fill it out? Do they still count a partially filled out survey in their results, or does it get thrown out?

JD Power results mean nothing for such a low volume vehicle as the Fiat, when you compare them against high volume sellers, like a Toyota Corolla or Camry. Less people own the cars, and less people respond to surveys like the JD Power surveys, unless they have an axe to grind.

You even had to put a disclaimer in your very first sentence, because even you know that there are flaws in JD Power's methodology. But you're right, there's no alternative to use instead of it.

So that brings up a point that has to be made:

If you know that JD Power is flawed, and there's nothing better to compare against, why even bother using it as a "source" in the first place?

BC.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

How many owners of Fiat products does JD Power send surveys to?
All of them? You know that's not true.

How do they select which owners to send a survey to?
My wife has owned two Fiat's since their return to the US market, and she hasn't received anything from JD Power about either of her cars.


It doesn't matter. Go take a high school statistics class. A large sample size isn't required to determine trends. All JDP has to do is make sure their survey sample is a true representation of the population they're trying to study. In this case, it's pretty easy: People who own Fiats.

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

JD Power results mean nothing for such a low volume vehicle as the Fiat, when you compare them against high volume sellers, like a Toyota Corolla or Camry. Less people own the cars, and less people respond to surveys like the JD Power surveys, unless they have an axe to grind.


Yet somehow Porsche, an equally low-volume seller, is at the top of the rankings.

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

You even had to put a disclaimer in your very first sentence, because even you know that there are flaws in JD Power's methodology. But you're right, there's no alternative to use instead of it.

So that brings up a point that has to be made:

If you know that JD Power is flawed, and there's nothing better to compare against, why even bother using it as a "source" in the first place?

BC.


My initial comment isn't about flaws in JPD's survey. It is a comment about the average intelligence of internet users. I put the "disclaimer" because most internet mouth-breathers couldn't pass a remedial math exam, let alone understand how surveys and statistics work.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: Miller88
The 500 Abarth looks like it'd be fun for a day or two. Then, I'm not sure I see a point.


My wife has put over 16k miles on her Abarth in the 2.5 years that she has owned it.
She still thinks that it's a full on riot every time she fires it up, and goes for a drive.

Oh, and it hasn't had any mechanical failures in that period of time.

You're obviously not Fiat's target audience.

BC.


Yep. That's why I don't have a Fiesta ST, either.

I'd talk myself into a "regular" 500, "regular" fiesta or a Mirage pretty quickly if I was shopping that segment.