MolaKule
Staff member
Never fear, MSPARKS, but what if I become a "Schaeffer's" rep????
How important is volatility (Noack)
- Thread starter jjbula
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MolaKule
Staff member
Seriously, MS,
I don't have time right now for either one.
I don't have time right now for either one.
MolaKule
Staff member
To MS,
The signature line below is directed to those ignorant TWERPS at CASTROL, AMSOIL, the NAD, and at BBB. Do I have an opinion about the outcome of that situation, NAAWW!
The signature line below is directed to those ignorant TWERPS at CASTROL, AMSOIL, the NAD, and at BBB. Do I have an opinion about the outcome of that situation, NAAWW!
Patman
Staff member
Hehe, believe it or not, I used to be an Amsoil dealer!! Back in the early 90s I was looking for Redline and couldn't find it. Mobil 1 only came in 5w30 and I needed 10w30 for the Mustang I had at the time. So since I couldn't find Redline, I ended up at the Amsoil warehouse which is not far from where I live. I ended up getting a membership just to buy oil for myself. I used it for a couple of years, then switched to Mobil 1 again. I never sold any Amsoil to anyone else. A few years later, around 94 or 95, I got an Amsoil membership again, and used it for about a year or so, then went back to Mobil 1 again after another price increase ended up making it so that even at my cost it was about $1 more per quart for Amsoil. At the time I felt that Mobil 1 was 95% as good as Amsoil, and I could buy it 7 days a week at the local stores, so it was way more convenient.quote:
Originally posted by msparks:
I'd really hate to see him if he ever became an Amsoil Dealer!!quote:
Originally posted by Patman:
LOL!
My wife thinks I'm nuts when it comes to my obsession with oil!
Not a neighbor would be safe
This is your history lesson of the day kids.
That explains why your not the average oil enthusiast you must have read more than a few of the Action News.quote:
Originally posted by Patman:
This is your history lesson of the day kids.
I do commend you on your self control to give other oil/lubricants a try! Good for You
Patman
Staff member
Hehe, I found a couple of old copies of the Amsoil Action news in my basement last weekend actually! I gave them a quick read and had a good laugh, especially when reading AJ's letter of the month.
Since this has gotten so far off topic, sounds like we are having funquote:
Originally posted by MolaKule:
To MS,
The signature line below is directed to those ignorant TWERPS at CASTROL, AMSOIL, the NAD, and at BBB. Do I have an opinion about the outcome of that situation, NAAWW!
If you would become a schaffers rep, I would still talk to you, since you are still a wealth of information. You would be surprised there are some highly educated Amsoil Dealers out there too. I personally know some engineers and chemists that will still use the stuff, I don't know why!
Anyhow as long as you don't fault me for things that others do, including the Big Kahuna himself.
To get back on topic, I got to wondering about this the last few days, so I called Mobil and got this info about the 0W30 and the 10W30:
0W30 Noack - 13%, HTHS - 2.99
10W30 Noack - 8.8 % HTHS - 3.2
(these are the SuperSyn).
When I used either the Amsoil 0W30, or 5W30 (which both have higher Noack and HTHS and are higher on the 30W numbers), I always had to add 1 quart between 1700 and 2100 respectively.
The 0W30 Mobil 1 SuperSyn which I currently have in my Pontiac Grand Prix (3.1) with 224,300 miles, I have 3200 miles and it is still on the full mark.
Go figure?
Either my Pontiac has an affinity for Mobil 1 or there is more to it than just some numbers on tech sheets, or both.
In other words "me thinketh" there needs to be thorough inspection, education, observation, and learning from the real experience of the many who post here their own analysis, observation, and experience, and where you live, how you drive, what type of vehicle, and other variables (that we learn from others here), etc.,etc . before we can come to, or close to a conclusion about this whole fascinating issue that we here are all obsessed with, OIL.
Much to learn, thanks to all who participate here and allow us all to keep coming back for our fix.
Good Day,
Steven
0W30 Noack - 13%, HTHS - 2.99
10W30 Noack - 8.8 % HTHS - 3.2
(these are the SuperSyn).
When I used either the Amsoil 0W30, or 5W30 (which both have higher Noack and HTHS and are higher on the 30W numbers), I always had to add 1 quart between 1700 and 2100 respectively.
The 0W30 Mobil 1 SuperSyn which I currently have in my Pontiac Grand Prix (3.1) with 224,300 miles, I have 3200 miles and it is still on the full mark.
Go figure?
Either my Pontiac has an affinity for Mobil 1 or there is more to it than just some numbers on tech sheets, or both.
In other words "me thinketh" there needs to be thorough inspection, education, observation, and learning from the real experience of the many who post here their own analysis, observation, and experience, and where you live, how you drive, what type of vehicle, and other variables (that we learn from others here), etc.,etc . before we can come to, or close to a conclusion about this whole fascinating issue that we here are all obsessed with, OIL.
Much to learn, thanks to all who participate here and allow us all to keep coming back for our fix.
Good Day,
Steven
Patman
Staff member
Interesting! The Schaeffers 10w30 blend doesn't have as good a noack value, but it's HTHS is better at 3.5. Exactly what does a better HTHS mean in terms of the performance of an oil though? Does this mean an oil with a higher HTHS is less likely to be sheared back under high rpms?
About HTHS from
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oildefinitions.html
Q. How does oil affect my engine's durability as well as its fuel economy?
Operating viscosity Of the different types of viscosity measurements, an oil's operating viscosity is the most important. It is this property which permits an engine to operate at all since it determines the oil's ability to lubricate critical areas of the engine such as the bearings, where temperatures can be greater than 300°F and the piston rings where temperatures can be much higher.
A sufficiently high viscosity at high operating temperatures protects the engine parts from damaging contact with one another. However, even though higher operating viscosity is more protective, it also takes more energy to move the engine parts, resulting in poorer fuel economy.
Oil experiences very high stress while in use, causing it to lose viscosity as a result of shearing. An oil's resistance to viscosity loss during operation directly affects its ability to minimize engine wear. This is discussed more in the section titled 'Shear Stability'.
With the advent of multigrade oils, it has become necessary to measure the operating viscosity nearer the high flow rates encountered between the moving surfaces in an engine.
Thus, the operating viscosity of an oil is measured using ASTM test method D4683. In this test, the oil is placed in a stator with a very close-fitting rotor and brought to the test temperature of 150°C (30°F). The rotor is then forced to turn at 3600 RPM while only 3.5 microns (1/30th of a human hair) from the stator. The force required to turn the rotor at this speed and gap is measured and translated to viscosity in units of centipoise.
The SAE's engine oil classification system sets the following values for engine oils according to their high temperature, high flow rate viscosities:
Viscosity Grade Minimum Operating viscosity at 150°C (302°F)
20---------- 2.6 cP
30---------- 2.9 cP
40 (cars)--- 2.9 cP
40 (trucks)-- 3.7 cP
50---------- 3.7 cP
60---------- 3.7 cP
[ July 26, 2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oildefinitions.html
Q. How does oil affect my engine's durability as well as its fuel economy?
Operating viscosity Of the different types of viscosity measurements, an oil's operating viscosity is the most important. It is this property which permits an engine to operate at all since it determines the oil's ability to lubricate critical areas of the engine such as the bearings, where temperatures can be greater than 300°F and the piston rings where temperatures can be much higher.
A sufficiently high viscosity at high operating temperatures protects the engine parts from damaging contact with one another. However, even though higher operating viscosity is more protective, it also takes more energy to move the engine parts, resulting in poorer fuel economy.
Oil experiences very high stress while in use, causing it to lose viscosity as a result of shearing. An oil's resistance to viscosity loss during operation directly affects its ability to minimize engine wear. This is discussed more in the section titled 'Shear Stability'.
With the advent of multigrade oils, it has become necessary to measure the operating viscosity nearer the high flow rates encountered between the moving surfaces in an engine.
Thus, the operating viscosity of an oil is measured using ASTM test method D4683. In this test, the oil is placed in a stator with a very close-fitting rotor and brought to the test temperature of 150°C (30°F). The rotor is then forced to turn at 3600 RPM while only 3.5 microns (1/30th of a human hair) from the stator. The force required to turn the rotor at this speed and gap is measured and translated to viscosity in units of centipoise.
The SAE's engine oil classification system sets the following values for engine oils according to their high temperature, high flow rate viscosities:
Viscosity Grade Minimum Operating viscosity at 150°C (302°F)
20---------- 2.6 cP
30---------- 2.9 cP
40 (cars)--- 2.9 cP
40 (trucks)-- 3.7 cP
50---------- 3.7 cP
60---------- 3.7 cP
[ July 26, 2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]
Differences in HTHS may account for fuel economy differences between brands of oils in the same viscosity(so my theory goes).
Is it possible for a 10w30 with a 3.5 HTHS to get worse mileage than a 10w40 with a 2.9 HTHS?
I know the operating temp of the engine is a big factor. How hot will the average passenger car engine be?
Are these really stupid questions?
[ July 26, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]
Is it possible for a 10w30 with a 3.5 HTHS to get worse mileage than a 10w40 with a 2.9 HTHS?
I know the operating temp of the engine is a big factor. How hot will the average passenger car engine be?
Are these really stupid questions?
[ July 26, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]
QUOTE]
Is it possible for a 10w30 with a 3.5 HTHS to get worse mileage than a 10w40 with a 2.9 HTHS?
As I stated earlier, I used the higher HTHS and Noack numbered Amsoils, and now the Mobil 1 lower Noack and HTHS. I would say the Mobil 1 is ever so slightly higher mpg (maybe 1 or 2 mpg and that only sometimes), so I don't think that this is really an issue. But the Mobil 1 is staying in the engine, whereas I had to keep adding the Amsoil.
But what I have noticed so far on some of the oil analysis' is the lower HTHS then the viscosity appears to go down. I'm not saying this is an absolute, but when you look at another report then see if you observe that correlation also.
Hmmmm.
Steven :
Is it possible for a 10w30 with a 3.5 HTHS to get worse mileage than a 10w40 with a 2.9 HTHS?
As I stated earlier, I used the higher HTHS and Noack numbered Amsoils, and now the Mobil 1 lower Noack and HTHS. I would say the Mobil 1 is ever so slightly higher mpg (maybe 1 or 2 mpg and that only sometimes), so I don't think that this is really an issue. But the Mobil 1 is staying in the engine, whereas I had to keep adding the Amsoil.
But what I have noticed so far on some of the oil analysis' is the lower HTHS then the viscosity appears to go down. I'm not saying this is an absolute, but when you look at another report then see if you observe that correlation also.
Hmmmm.
Steven :
Here's another oil consumption anomaly:
I consumed about 1/4 qt in 5,000mi on the factory-fill 5w-20 dino oil in my Acura RSX. I have M1 0w-30 TriSynthetic in the crankcase now and my oil consumption is 3 times higher.
I consumed about 1/4 qt in 5,000mi on the factory-fill 5w-20 dino oil in my Acura RSX. I have M1 0w-30 TriSynthetic in the crankcase now and my oil consumption is 3 times higher.
Two oils with same basic viscosity at 40 c and
100c (i.e. 10w30)
but with different HTHS numbers at 150 c.
I bet one must be of lesser quality or have less
oil (more additives)
100c (i.e. 10w30)
but with different HTHS numbers at 150 c.
I bet one must be of lesser quality or have less
oil (more additives)
I'm raising the ugly head of Noack again
I assume the part of an oil that volatizes due to heat is the group I part (or esters in Group IV synthetics), VIIs and some other additives.
Which produces less varnish and sludge precursers, group I or Esters?
Would an oil that uses PAO and Esters be better at keeping the engine clean than a Group III oil?
I assume the part of an oil that volatizes due to heat is the group I part (or esters in Group IV synthetics), VIIs and some other additives.
Which produces less varnish and sludge precursers, group I or Esters?
Would an oil that uses PAO and Esters be better at keeping the engine clean than a Group III oil?
MolaKule
Staff member
"I assume the part of an oil that volatizes due to heat is the group I part (or esters in Group IV synthetics), VIIs and some other additives."
The Group I, II, III oils all contain a wide spectrum of molecules, some light some heavy. The lighter hydrocarbons volatize (evaporate under heat) leaving behind the heavier fractions to thicken the resulting oils. Esters (Group V)and PAO's (Group IV) are most heat stable and volatize less than either Group I, II, or III.
"Which produces less varnish and sludge precursers, group I or Esters?
Esters prodiuce less sludge precursors because they are more heat stable. When they do evaporate, they do so without leaving residues.
"Would an oil that uses PAO and Esters be better at keeping the engine clean than a Group III oil?"
Esters are more highly polar, therefor are good at keeping an engine clean.
A Group III oil (and even a good Group II+) oil with a good detergent/dispersant package may keep an engine clean.
Theoretically, a full synth with a high ester to PAO ratio, and low additive concentration, will beat a Group III dino anyday wrt cleanliness. The oils that fit that description are Neo, Redline, and Mobil 1.
The Group I, II, III oils all contain a wide spectrum of molecules, some light some heavy. The lighter hydrocarbons volatize (evaporate under heat) leaving behind the heavier fractions to thicken the resulting oils. Esters (Group V)and PAO's (Group IV) are most heat stable and volatize less than either Group I, II, or III.
"Which produces less varnish and sludge precursers, group I or Esters?
Esters prodiuce less sludge precursors because they are more heat stable. When they do evaporate, they do so without leaving residues.
"Would an oil that uses PAO and Esters be better at keeping the engine clean than a Group III oil?"
Esters are more highly polar, therefor are good at keeping an engine clean.
A Group III oil (and even a good Group II+) oil with a good detergent/dispersant package may keep an engine clean.
Theoretically, a full synth with a high ester to PAO ratio, and low additive concentration, will beat a Group III dino anyday wrt cleanliness. The oils that fit that description are Neo, Redline, and Mobil 1.
Thanks MolaKule
I know I'm getting too deep but every piece of info helps. Your post really helps me apply the info on Esters you gave us earlier.
I'll be posting an analysis of Synpower 10w30 in a Camry when I get to 6K and will post with Schaeffer or Mobil 1 after that. So far, the Synpower has needed no makeup oil over 3.5K.
Does M1 still say "Full synthetic except for carrier oil?"
If so than it probably has some Group I or II to help hold additives. Additionally, Synpower is only about 75% group III so it can have enough Group I or II to hold the additives.
What is my point?
The 20-25% of PAO in Schaeffer Blend is actually a fairly high percentage of Group IV. I consider Schaeffer within a hairs width of a "Full" synthetic in that regard. All the old hats on this board know that but thought I'd reemphasize for the new members.
Just a humble opinion from a non-expert.
I know I'm getting too deep but every piece of info helps. Your post really helps me apply the info on Esters you gave us earlier.
I'll be posting an analysis of Synpower 10w30 in a Camry when I get to 6K and will post with Schaeffer or Mobil 1 after that. So far, the Synpower has needed no makeup oil over 3.5K.
Does M1 still say "Full synthetic except for carrier oil?"
If so than it probably has some Group I or II to help hold additives. Additionally, Synpower is only about 75% group III so it can have enough Group I or II to hold the additives.
What is my point?
The 20-25% of PAO in Schaeffer Blend is actually a fairly high percentage of Group IV. I consider Schaeffer within a hairs width of a "Full" synthetic in that regard. All the old hats on this board know that but thought I'd reemphasize for the new members.
Just a humble opinion from a non-expert.
Patman
Staff member
Actually, I believe Schaeffers blends have 28% PAO.
Hmm..the MSDS sheet on the #703 10w30 says Polywhatsis: 16-20%, but it's dated from 6/01. Maybe the new SL has more?
I dunno.
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