I've been on a quest to find the lowest volatility and what the effect will be on deposits/sludge. How low is low enough? The strange things that keep me up at night.
How important is volatility (Noack)
- Thread starter jjbula
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Noack volatility is like a lot of things concerning base oil stock, not near a problem as was in the past due to the new GF-3 specs. To base an oil's performance on base stock's performance is not always the best thing. Kinda like taking an musical band with all 20 or so musicians. singlarly, each one may be the top of the line in playing on time, and with precision. But then put a single drummer in that can't keep a beat, maybe even tends to drown out the instruments, then see how as a whole the band works to gether.
Like the band, the noack is one aspect of how well the base stock is going to hold and to base as to how well the band is going to sound based on one instrument or how well an oil is going to hold up based on one aspect of the base oil is not a true picture.
There is several stages to look at when looking at oil.
1.. Base stock's ability to..
a. hold up to heat (noack)
b. pumpability at cold temps
c. maybe flashpoint
d. operational viscosity
e. pumping viscosity
f. shear stability
2.. detergent packages...
a. how they hold up to acid resisitance
(tbn and detergent levels)
3.. Wear protection...
a. what kind of barrier additive is used
b. what levels of barrier additives(amounts)
These are just some of the things to look at, now, put it all together. If they play off key because one is higher pitched than the other(to much of one additive,not enough of the other), or off beat from the other band members(not playing well with other additives due to clash), Then you have an ok sounding band or maybe even a really sorry sounding band that only 10 beers could make them sound better(use an after market oil additive).
So back to noack, this tests oil up to 500deg for 1 hr?, your oil will not see this kind of temp for that duration therfore it like a lot of other things is taken as if the better the number the better the oil. case in point, if your oil only see's 350 deg f., but can handle 450-475 deg with no problem, will it work as well as the one that handles 500 deg? why not, it is establish that until it reaches 450 deg that's when you start with problems as 500 in the other example. So what if it doesn't last as long, what it does establish is that the base oil can resist heat longer so that does make it look like a possible good canidate for extending drain intervals, provided that the tbn oxidation levels can hold up which rely on the additive package to help the base oil to withstand.
So in my opinion, don't loose sleep on it, but like many aspects to oil, it along with other parts play a small role but put to gether, like the music band, it all will sound like sweet wonderful music when they all play together (like a properly blended oil) and that my friend is how you look at oils and determine if they are what you want, but listening to the end results being played by the band(doing oil analysis on your engine with your choice of oil) is the key to determining oil quality. This is one reason I provided an area for oil analysis to be shared so that many could see real life #'s instead of just bench #'s.
And thats the rest of the story. Goooooood day.
Like the band, the noack is one aspect of how well the base stock is going to hold and to base as to how well the band is going to sound based on one instrument or how well an oil is going to hold up based on one aspect of the base oil is not a true picture.
There is several stages to look at when looking at oil.
1.. Base stock's ability to..
a. hold up to heat (noack)
b. pumpability at cold temps
c. maybe flashpoint
d. operational viscosity
e. pumping viscosity
f. shear stability
2.. detergent packages...
a. how they hold up to acid resisitance
(tbn and detergent levels)
3.. Wear protection...
a. what kind of barrier additive is used
b. what levels of barrier additives(amounts)
These are just some of the things to look at, now, put it all together. If they play off key because one is higher pitched than the other(to much of one additive,not enough of the other), or off beat from the other band members(not playing well with other additives due to clash), Then you have an ok sounding band or maybe even a really sorry sounding band that only 10 beers could make them sound better(use an after market oil additive).
So back to noack, this tests oil up to 500deg for 1 hr?, your oil will not see this kind of temp for that duration therfore it like a lot of other things is taken as if the better the number the better the oil. case in point, if your oil only see's 350 deg f., but can handle 450-475 deg with no problem, will it work as well as the one that handles 500 deg? why not, it is establish that until it reaches 450 deg that's when you start with problems as 500 in the other example. So what if it doesn't last as long, what it does establish is that the base oil can resist heat longer so that does make it look like a possible good canidate for extending drain intervals, provided that the tbn oxidation levels can hold up which rely on the additive package to help the base oil to withstand.
So in my opinion, don't loose sleep on it, but like many aspects to oil, it along with other parts play a small role but put to gether, like the music band, it all will sound like sweet wonderful music when they all play together (like a properly blended oil) and that my friend is how you look at oils and determine if they are what you want, but listening to the end results being played by the band(doing oil analysis on your engine with your choice of oil) is the key to determining oil quality. This is one reason I provided an area for oil analysis to be shared so that many could see real life #'s instead of just bench #'s.
And thats the rest of the story. Goooooood day.
Patman
Staff member
Great post Bob! So Valvoline Maxlife is kinda like a cheezy lounge band, while Schaeffers is the New York Philharmonic!
Bob,
That is a very good analogy. The more I think about it, and the more I learn from you, low Noack is not the Holy Grail I thought it was. After monitoring changes in oil specs 8-12 seems to be a pretty good Noack nowadays. I think Auto-Rx or Neutra 131 every once in awhile will keep my Camry happy.
When I finish moving to Alabama I'll put in a $250 order for 5W30 or 10w30 Schaeffer Blend. Can't decide which yet.
Patman--Glad your weening off that Maxlife
[ July 21, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]
That is a very good analogy. The more I think about it, and the more I learn from you, low Noack is not the Holy Grail I thought it was. After monitoring changes in oil specs 8-12 seems to be a pretty good Noack nowadays. I think Auto-Rx or Neutra 131 every once in awhile will keep my Camry happy.
When I finish moving to Alabama I'll put in a $250 order for 5W30 or 10w30 Schaeffer Blend. Can't decide which yet.
Patman--Glad your weening off that Maxlife
[ July 21, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]
Patman
Staff member
Hehe, do you have any idea how hard it is for me to continue running Maxlife when I've gotquote:
Originally posted by jjbula:
Patman--Glad your weening off that Maxlife
a case of Schaeffers in my basement?
baseline analysis of Maxlife (which is also the first analysis after Auto-rx) before making
the switch.
Patman: Here is what I want to know. Since picking up the Schaeffer's from the bus station, how many times have you held the bottle, how many times have you taken off a cap to smell the oil and rub it between your fingers. Come on now, tell the truth.
Patman
Staff member
LOL!quote:
Originally posted by Johnny:
Patman: Here is what I want to know. Since picking up the Schaeffer's from the bus station, how many times have you held the bottle, how many times have you taken off a cap to smell the oil and rub it between your fingers. Come on now, tell the truth.
Johnny, here's the real reason why he hasn't yet
Wife ties him up before he goes into basement!
[ July 21, 2002, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Wife ties him up before he goes into basement!
[ July 21, 2002, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Patman
Staff member
LOL!
My wife thinks I'm nuts when it comes to my obsession with oil!
My wife thinks I'm nuts when it comes to my obsession with oil!
MolaKule
Staff member
Patman,
My wife doesn't come up to the shed anymore. She call's it the OIL shed
and stated she didn't want to get blown up. She says I have too many chemical experiemtns going on and one day there will a mushroom cloud up there and, pooooff!
My wife doesn't come up to the shed anymore. She call's it the OIL shed
You know, if we took care of our bodies like we try to take care of our engines, we would all live to be 150.
Wouldn't that be something. A 150 year old Patman looking for the right lubricant for his turbo charged wheelchair.
Wouldn't that be something. A 150 year old Patman looking for the right lubricant for his turbo charged wheelchair.
My wife thinks I'm crazy too, but at least she gives me an honest opinion when I show her the used filters I cut up and say "ok hun now which one would be the best one for the truck?" She says "the one you have not cut up yet!!!
As for the volatility issue, years ago The pcv valve had to be cleaned regularly, or replaced if really crudded up, but these days my pcv valves are bone dry, absolutely no buildup. To me that is a pretty good indicator of how well the oil is doing in the vaporization dept.
As for the volatility issue, years ago The pcv valve had to be cleaned regularly, or replaced if really crudded up, but these days my pcv valves are bone dry, absolutely no buildup. To me that is a pretty good indicator of how well the oil is doing in the vaporization dept.
MolaKule
Staff member
It also shows how much the detergent/dispersive package has improved as well.
Basically, volatility is a measure of how much the oil vaporizes. This means that a quickly vaporizing oil will need 1.) changing more often, 2.) that the oil will thicken to a higher viscosity - because the more volatile components (of low viscosity) of the base oil have left the oil, leaving behind the thicker and more viscous components.
I would like to see Schaeffer's get their volatility down to a lower NOACk (or D5800) level of about 10%. Their 13% just falls within the newer guidelines.
Basically, volatility is a measure of how much the oil vaporizes. This means that a quickly vaporizing oil will need 1.) changing more often, 2.) that the oil will thicken to a higher viscosity - because the more volatile components (of low viscosity) of the base oil have left the oil, leaving behind the thicker and more viscous components.
I would like to see Schaeffer's get their volatility down to a lower NOACk (or D5800) level of about 10%. Their 13% just falls within the newer guidelines.
MolaKule
Staff member
FACTOID:
Volatility is also a function (related to) of the pressure under which the fluid operates.
In the lower than atmospheric pressure (partial vacuum) of the inside of the engine (because of the PCV), a fluid will vaporize quicker in a vacuum or partial vacuum.
Conversely, a fluid will vaporize at higher temperatures IF the pressure above it is higher. Case in point, the fluid in your radiators- the coolant.
Volatility is also a function (related to) of the pressure under which the fluid operates.
In the lower than atmospheric pressure (partial vacuum) of the inside of the engine (because of the PCV), a fluid will vaporize quicker in a vacuum or partial vacuum.
Conversely, a fluid will vaporize at higher temperatures IF the pressure above it is higher. Case in point, the fluid in your radiators- the coolant.
NOACK on 10w30----
Schaeffer Blend 12
Valvoline Synth 8
Pennzoil 4.4???
Anyone know for certain the NOACK on Castrol, Chevron, Mobil 1? Please don't quote one of those 1-800 tech "experts"
I'm starting to think this NOACK obsession of mine might be unnecessary. If oil analysis indicates the oil has stayed near grade and wear is not increasing, why bother worrying about it? Auto-RX or 131 should clean out the deposits. Without evidence, though, my gut still tells me some key additives may be vaporizing if the NOACK is too high.
MolaKule---thanks for all the great info
Schaeffer Blend 12
Valvoline Synth 8
Pennzoil 4.4???
Anyone know for certain the NOACK on Castrol, Chevron, Mobil 1? Please don't quote one of those 1-800 tech "experts"
I'm starting to think this NOACK obsession of mine might be unnecessary. If oil analysis indicates the oil has stayed near grade and wear is not increasing, why bother worrying about it? Auto-RX or 131 should clean out the deposits. Without evidence, though, my gut still tells me some key additives may be vaporizing if the NOACK is too high.
MolaKule---thanks for all the great info
On the lab sheets I have for legal registrations, the "old" Chevron Delo formula shows 12.9% NOAK. I don't know if that is actual or just covers them in case of they get that high. Any oil that is ACEA E5 is 13% or below. I don't have any numbers for Chevron Supreme.
Thinking of Johnny's responses and the Pennzoil number variances, maybe the published numbers are CYA numbers that the legal departments like.
Thinking of Johnny's responses and the Pennzoil number variances, maybe the published numbers are CYA numbers that the legal departments like.
Something else I've been chasing down is oxidative stability. (Been worried about my Camry and inherent sludge issues)
I think I have good idea on the differences between Group I, II, II+, III, and IV/V. However, I wonder about the oxidative stability of the new M1 SS with the new esters and who knows what else.
Perhaps this is
but it's my next thought
I think I have good idea on the differences between Group I, II, II+, III, and IV/V. However, I wonder about the oxidative stability of the new M1 SS with the new esters and who knows what else.
Perhaps this is
MolaKule
Staff member
I found an intersting statement in a SAE paper (981444):
"Another interesting observation is that variations in oil viscosity apparently were not detrimental with respect to oil consumption."
I think volatility is still important wrt to metallics boiling off and creating vapors which end up as deposits inside the conbustion chamber.
So volatility seems more important to the control of deposit and film formation than for oil consumption.
"Another interesting observation is that variations in oil viscosity apparently were not detrimental with respect to oil consumption."
I think volatility is still important wrt to metallics boiling off and creating vapors which end up as deposits inside the conbustion chamber.
So volatility seems more important to the control of deposit and film formation than for oil consumption.
I'd really hate to see him if he ever became an Amsoil Dealer!!quote:
Originally posted by Patman:
LOL!
My wife thinks I'm nuts when it comes to my obsession with oil!
Not a neighbor would be safe
I agree, in european cars ht/hs vis is more important than just vis alone!!
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