How does someone even become an "Independent Expert" on watch authenticity? Specifically Rolex

[UncleDave]

I'd definitely have to put it in the safe, the odds of me damaging it when wearing it are high. Back when I used to wear a watch (I had a Bulova that I got from my dad, I'm not even sure where it is right now) I would routinely catch the glass on things or forget to take it off when I definitely should have taken it off and get it caught on something mechanical. I had a decent titanium watch that I bought back in the late 90's, it vanished at some point at my parent's place, have no idea whatever happened to it. Never bought a nice one after that. Had an Apple Watch and never wore it so my son has it now, lol (got it as a gift from my wife).

Last gun I sold I made money on (Savage 110BA, sold it to buy the CADEX) but I know that's not always the case. Guns tend to hold their value if you buy good ones, for the most part however.

Keep her new in box in the safe, feel her up every year or so and wait, better than cash in the bank.

The thing a real sub sub and that knockoffs dont have - is the metallurgy and component quality.
The fake may look the same, but it aint the same, even if the parts are completely interchangeable.
This is why even 20-30 year used ones hold up.

I love savage arms. I should have never sold my 99. I'll probably never sell any more weapons,
I have a tremendous affection for fine mechanical devices.
I struggle to resist collecting more.

 

[Trav]

Things that appreciate in value?

That is the catch, you really cant start wearing it daily and expect it to increase in value unless your name was Paul Newman, his Daytona sold for 17.8 million and it wasn't because it was a Rolex.
My favorite daily watch right now is my ebel 1911 big date automatic (ebel no longer makes automatics) it has no bling but is a wonderful watch, very well made and beautifully finished. anyone who knows watches can see an ebel a mile away by the case shape.

 

[thastinger]

That is the catch, you really cant start wearing it daily and expect it to increase in value unless your name was Paul Newman, his Daytona sold for 17.8 million and it wasn't because it was a Rolex.
My favorite daily watch right now is my ebel 1911 big date automatic (ebel no longer makes automatics) it has no bling but is a wonderful watch, very well made and beautifully finished. anyone who knows watches can see an ebel a mile away by the case shape.

Sure you can. You can because they wear like a stone. I've worn mine every day for 21 years and it looks 99% as good as the day I bought it out of the display case.

 

[SeaJay]

A watch that is worth 3 times as much as in 2008 has seen an average yield of just under 9% annually over the 13 year time frame. Great results if they all performed as well.

 

[bunnspecial]

Not every rolex runs at 28.8, the ones marked "superlative chronometer" run at 32K.

Source for this?

 

[bunnspecial]

There are people who have spent years studying and writing about Rolex. The company themselves is very secretive with information, and I'd venture to guess that the pool of "true experts" is small and not likely to want to contract with Ebay. I can think of one person who I'd truly consider an "expert" off the top of my head.

There are different tiers of fakes. The really bad ones are usually obvious, and even the mid-range ones are easy if you know what you're looking at. It use to be that pulling the back and seeing the movement was a litmus test, but as I understand it there are "super fakes" out there where you might not even realize it unless you pull the movement apart and really know the ins and outs of what every part looks like, or try to fit a genuine part. It's scary how good they are.

 

[PandaBear]

I think that Rolex got away from Quartz for traditional reasons.

I wasn't familiar with Rolex til the later 70's. I mean, I heard of them but didn't know a thing about them. They seemed to become ever more popular during the 80's and the Yuppy generation. Although I do know a several guys who have heard of Rolex way before me and even fewer who got one for a high school graduation gift in the late 60's/early 70's when Rolex was always expensive but, more affordable.

A majority of the new demand came from Asia, where newly mint riches and the increase in finance related jobs "require" them as "uniforms" in the industry, at least the customer facing ones.

 

[PandaBear]

That is the catch, you really cant start wearing it daily and expect it to increase in value unless your name was Paul Newman, his Daytona sold for 17.8 million and it wasn't because it was a Rolex.
My favorite daily watch right now is my ebel 1911 big date automatic (ebel no longer makes automatics) it has no bling but is a wonderful watch, very well made and beautifully finished. anyone who knows watches can see an ebel a mile away by the case shape.

If Michael Jackson's gloves sold for that much, it was because of Michael Jackson, not because it is some fine quality gloves, and it certainly does not mean the other 999 out of 1000 pair of gloves in the same assembly line run will sell for nearly that much.

 

[UncleDave]

Source for this?

32 was a mis speak, I meant to say 36.

I'm going all the way back to the El Primero based movements. The " Zenith/Daytonas" those ran at 36K VBH. "Superlative" was originally applied to these movements.

I believe the modern description is external COSC certs on a 28 movement.

 

[bunnspecial]

Have to dig it up.
I'm going all the way back to the El Primero based movements. The " Zenith/Daytonas".
I believe the modern description is external COSC certs.

"Superlative Chronometer" has been in use for...a long time...

The Datejust on my wrist now is marked as such and is most certainly a 28,800 bph 3035 movement. That marking is splashed across all Datejusts and Day-Dates, and even the newest 3235 calibre has a standard frequency of 28,800.

 

[UncleDave]

"Superlative Chronometer" has been in use for...a long time...

The Datejust on my wrist now is marked as such and is most certainly a 28,800 bph 3035 movement. That marking is splashed across all Datejusts and Day-Dates, and even the newest 3235 calibre has a standard frequency of 28,800.

I updated my reply.

My watch guy lent me a hugely expensive Rolex book that cost a ton oof money I got that from.

The original point was that not all rolexs beat at 28.8

 

[bunnspecial]

I updated my reply.

My watch guy lent me a hugely expensive Rolex book that cost a ton oof money I got that from.

The original point was that not all rolexs beat at 28.8

Just talked to a good friend of mine who is an independent watchmaker factory trained on the major Swiss makes and spends his days servicing Rolexes. He confirmed that there is not a Rolex manufactured movement that runs faster than 28,800.

No, not all run at 28,800. IIRC, the 15xx movements are 19,200, and if you stretch far enough back you'll find 15,000 movements.

36,000 on a Zenith derived movement I could believe.

Regardless, your statement was "

Not every rolex runs at 28.8, the ones marked "superlative chronometer" run at 32K."

The vast majority of "Superlative Chronometer" watches are 28,800.

 

[UncleDave]

Just talked to a good friend of mine who is an independent watchmaker factory trained on the major Swiss makes and spends his days servicing Rolexes. He confirmed that there is not a Rolex manufactured movement that runs faster than 28,800.

No, not all run at 28,800. IIRC, the 15xx movements are 19,200, and if you stretch far enough back you'll find 15,000 movements.

36,000 on a Zenith derived movement I could believe.

Regardless, your statement was "

Not every rolex runs at 28.8, the ones marked "superlative chronometer" run at 32K."

The vast majority of "Superlative Chronometer" watches are 28,800.

I'll happily agree to be corrected on my original statement and agree the vast majority of superlative chronometer are 28.8 - the definition changed over time.

Your friend is correct in that rolex didnt make a higher beat, but Rolex used zenith movements, and from what I could read and discern that when the superlative moniker was originally implied - when the faster movement was used.

My definition was superseded ( and I confused 32 w 36) , happens when you get old.

The new superlative is not equivalent to the old a 28.8 cant split the 10nth.

 

[bunnspecial]

The new superlative is not equivalent to the old a 28.8 cant split the 10nth.

Not sure I follow this statement. What do you mean by "can't split the 10nth"

 

[UncleDave]

Not sure I follow this statement. What do you mean by "can't split the 10nth"

Also called striking the 10nth. A watch that runs at 36K can resolve to 1/10 of a second.

I had also head before that Rolex nerfed the El-PRimero down to 28.8 which would mean their chrono was less accurate than a zenith chrono.

To your point about being a Rolex expert there are very few and the subject is incredibly complex deep and involved. Im merely an enthusiast, and consumer and am in no way an expert.

 

[bunnspecial]

Also called striking the 10nth. A watch that runs at 36K can resolve to 1/10 of a second.

I had also head before that Rolex nerfed the El-PRimero down to 28.8 which would mean their chrono was less accurate than a zenith chrono.

To your point about being a Rolex expert there are very few and the subject is incredibly complex deep and involved. Im merely an enthusiast, and consumer and am in no way an expert.

Not trying to be nit-picky and your point is understood, but are you possibly confusing Chronometer with Chronograph? The former is a term that at least now means a very accurate watch(historically it meant a watch with a detent escapement, now it usually refers to a watch that's been independently checked by a testing authority like COSC, and a Rolex Superlative Chronometer not only carries a certificate but meets their more stringent internal standard of +/-2s/day). A Chronograph, like the Rolex Daytona, is watch that integrates a stopwatch function.

And yes, I'm just an enthusiast also, and truth be told not even a huge Rolex nut. The only one I've owned and kept is the Datejust my parents gave me as a graduation gift when I got my masters degree. The others have been "flips" bought right that I used to fund other pieces for my collection . When I think of a Rolex expert, I think of someone like Jeff Hess. There's a whole lot to be known on the subject, and Rolex is so guarded with their information that a lot has to be inferred.

BTW, if you want to see nutty resolution on a chronograph, or more properly a stop watch, look up the Elgin "Jitterbug." It was a WWII era watch that is sometimes called a "Bomb Timer" although IIRC it was more for timing aerial strikes to high precision and I'm probably botching that use. I've seen the frequency stated at 144,000 bph, although that seems rediculously high. The one I have was in a "junk box" and when I looked at it I though it was a cheap 7j Elgin movement missing its balance wheel. I picked it up and it started "buzzing", which I thought was the pallet fork jumping back and forth. I looked closer and saw a teeny tiny balance wheel that looks like it belongs in about a 6/0 sized wrist watch. The main dial is 10 seconds with a register to go out to 100 seconds. It does sound like it's buzzing rather than ticking. Since the hand sweeps a fairly large 16 size dial in 10 seconds, it's not as smooth as you might expect, but it can time to very high precision.

 

[UncleDave]

All good discussion. My Rolex knowledge is from 20 years ago, Ive paid much more attention to JLC, but that brand is also fabulously complex and guarded.

I know the difference between the 2 and find it somewhat strange that Rolex uses the term "Superlative Chronometer" on Chronographs as well and occasionally you see "cosmograph". Here's a screen gab of an el primero daytona.

That rolex book I mentioned cost 5K, I was stunned.

WOW 144K! Will check it out.

 

[Trav]

The 2007 with the 4130 has exactly the same dial info and it is 28,800. The Zenith 4030 was 28,00 in the Rolex watch.

Of the myriad changes, the most significant was the drop in frequency. The Zenith movement arrived at Rolex’s door with a beat of 36,000vph and left at a more stately 28,800vph, matching the rest of the brand’s lineup. It’s the balance speed that gives the trademark sweep to the seconds hand, while also ensuring the caliber’s components receive less wear and tear and a longer time between services. (It was in direct contrast to the Valjoux movement, which Rolex had raised from 18,000vph to 21,600vph).

 

[bunnspecial]

I know the difference between the 2 and find it somewhat strange that Rolex uses the term "Superlative Chronometer" on Chronographs as well and occasionally you see "cosmograph". Here's a screen gab of an el primero daytona.

Rolex puts "Superlative Chronometer" on any watch that meets COSC standards, which means the Daytona also.

It's independent of the chronometer function.

"Cosmograph" is Rolex being Rolex and coming up with their own name for something, although some references claim it's to distinguish it as a chronometer-grade chrongraph.

 

[UncleDave]

The 2007 with the 4130 has exactly the same dial info and it is 28,800. The Zenith 4030 was 28,00 in the Rolex watch.

From Memory the primero had a few things Rolex didnt at the time.

an automatic chronograph
36K
instantaneous date change
A way to regulate the chronograph so that its function doesn't alter the watches frequency.

sound like they killed 2 of 3 reasons to use it at all.