Honda sm 0w-20 (Idemitsu), 7000 mi, 2004 Accord I4

[k24a4]

My first run of this oil. Winter service. Typical commute was 25min, 8-15 miles depending on Job. 1000 miles was longer highway trips, 200+ miles each way. Travelling to girlfriend's Condo once or twice a week, 20 miles one way. Few, if any, cold starts of less than 5 miles. I'd say 60/40 highway/city this interval. Not for extended drains, by the look of the TBN. I'll probably cap the OCI at 7500 miles with this oil, and my current fill, Shell Syn 5w-20, should driving conditions remain similar. First column of numbers will be this fill, the second, an analysis of PYB 5w-20, and the last, Blackstone Universal averages. I used ALS tribology (Wix) for this analysis while my first was Blackstone. I'll use ALS for the next few. Discrepancy in Al is interesting. Can't say I'm worried. But I'll continue with analysis to see if there is a trend. Silicon remains above average. The airbox is a pain to get into, and the filter tends to move around a bit. I have a Puolator in now. Comments, questions, welcome.

Code:

Vehicle          '04 Honda Accord Ex
Miles on Vehicle  99686
Engine            DOHC Inline 4 cylinder
Transmission      5-manual

Oil               Honda sm 0w-20 Full Synthetic
Sump              4.4 qts
Make-up Oil       0 qts
Oil Filter        Purolator Pureone
Air Filter        NPN (OEM)
Miles on Oil      7000
Time in service   5 months (Dec-April)



              Honda     PYB     Universal
              0w-20     5w-20   Averages
                                Blackstone

Aluminum        14        2        3
Chromium        <1        0        0
Iron            3         5        9
Copper          <1        1        4
Lead            <1        0        2
Tin             2         2        1
Molybdenum      539       422      77
Nickel          <1        0        0
Manganese       n/a       0        2
Silver          <1        0        0
Titanium        <1        0        0
Potassium       <5        0        2
Boron           24        48       52
Silicon         14        14       12
Sodium          6         7        36
Calcium         1646      2574     2324
Magnesium       6         9        34
Phosphorus      716       774      678  
Zinc            809       856      815
Barium          n/a       0        0

                                  Values
                                  should
                                  be  

SUS [email protected]   n/a       51.6     46-59
SUS [email protected]   8.0       7.75     6.0-10.2
Flashpoint      n/a       410      >355
Fuel %          n/a       <0.5     <2.0
Antifreeze %    NO        0.0      0.0
Water %         <.05      0.0      0.0
Insolubles %    n/a       0.2      <0.6
TBN             2.3       4.6      

 

[Garak]

What was the OCI on the previous PYB? Those numbers look pretty nice for a "mere conventional."

 

[Hounds]

Originally Posted By: Garak

What was the OCI on the previous PYB? Those numbers look pretty nice for a "mere conventional."

^ Seems like a pretty classic case of trying to guild the lily.

 

[gpshumway]

The second fill in my Honda Civic R18 came back with elevated aluminum as well. It also had "elevated" Si, but the engine is so new it's probably RTV, not dirt. The UOA is HERE. I'm not worried either, but it's interesting that two separate Honda engines show spikes in Al. I recall few more UOAs around here which show this as well. Good to see the Idemitsu product holding up viscosity wise. Your usage scenario is very similar to mine. I've got the same oil in my car right now (Subaru bottle), we'll see how it does in an R-series. Thanks for posting.

 

[buster]

Looks very good other than the Al. I don't know what to make of that. I would just resample and take if from there. Not much you can do with one UOA.

 

[k24a4]

I am awaiting a call back from the analyst to see if he/she can shed some light on the Al. The previous fill of pyb was run ~6300 miles.

 

[k24a4]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway

The second fill in my Honda Civic R18 came back with elevated aluminum as well. It also had "elevated" Si, but the engine is so new it's probably RTV, not dirt. The UOA is HERE. I'm not worried either, but it's interesting that two separate Honda engines show spikes in Al. I recall few more UOAs around here which show this as well. Good to see the Idemitsu product holding up viscosity wise. Your usage scenario is very similar to mine. I've got the same oil in my car right now (Subaru bottle), we'll see how it does in an R-series. Thanks for posting.

I don't know what to make of your numbers, gpshumway. It must still be break-in numbers. All the I4 Honda motors I've seen have very low wear metals, usually single digit or low double digit.

 

[addyguy]

You got MUCH better numbers with the PYB, on a similar-length interval....with how many different places have PYB on sale, I'd imagine it's a lot cheaper as well. Seem like PYB is the real winner here, no need to search out the Honda 0W-20!

 

[k24a4]

Originally Posted By: k24a4

I am awaiting a call back from the analyst to see if he/she can shed some light on the Al. The previous fill of pyb was run ~6300 miles.

Al within normal range (20 is threshold); continue analysis to see if there is a trend.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: buster

Looks very good other than the Al. I don't know what to make of that. I would just resample and take if from there. Not much you can do with one UOA.

+1 Since you're not continuing with the Idemitsu oil we'll never know if the higher than normal Al is an anomaly or not at least as far as that oil is concerned.

 

[k24a4]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Originally Posted By: buster

Looks very good other than the Al. I don't know what to make of that. I would just resample and take if from there. Not much you can do with one UOA.

+1 Since you're not continuing with the Idemitsu oil we'll never know if the higher than normal Al is an anomaly or not at least as far as that oil is concerned.

I have a stash of the 0w-20, but was going to run it only in the winter. After I change out the shell I'll do two consective runs of tje Idemitsu, with analysis.

 

[Garak]

If you're wanting to do UOAs, you're not going to do yourself any favours by switching oils back to back. Trending is what you want here. If you want to know how the Honda 0w-20 looks, I'd stick with it for a few OCIs and UOAs.

 

[k24a4]

Originally Posted By: Garak

If you're wanting to do UOAs, you're not going to do yourself any favours by switching oils back to back. Trending is what you want here. If you want to know how the Honda 0w-20 looks, I'd stick with it for a few OCIs and UOAs.

Got it. I'll do that going forward with the Idemitsu. Thanks.

 

[Garak]

That was just my reverse psychology so we can see how this oil does long term. In any case, I'm assuming you get it at a reasonable price anyhow. I like PYB myself, as it's a very good oil that can be had at a very good price. I also don't have any application with which to experiment with 0w-20 oils, at least safely anyhow. But, stick with the Honda 0w-20. That's where you'll get good data rather than jumping around.

 

[k24a4]

I'll say this about my car, when the ambient temp dips below 50F, usually late Fall/Winter, the engine on cold start makes a distinctive 'clack-clack-clack' under load for 8-12 minutes until the block is fully warm. It can be heard over road noise unless at highway speeds. The sound is not the 'tick-tick-tick' of valves. And is barely audible during the Spring/Summer. The term that comes to mind is piston slap. But I'm not an expert. So I don't know. I've come across other owners of the K24, whether it is in an Element, CRV, Accord or TSX that have a similar issue. But we're in the minority, I think. Could this have contributed to the elevated Al? Shrug. But I'll keep the analysis going to see if there is a trend.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: k24a4

I'll say this about my car, when the ambient temp dips below 50F, usually late Fall/Winter, the engine on cold start makes a distinctive 'clack-clack-clack' under load for 8-12 minutes until the block is fully warm. It can be heard over road noise unless at highway speeds. The sound is not the 'tick-tick-tick' of valves. And is barely audible during the Spring/Summer. The term that comes to mind is piston slap. But I'm not an expert. So I don't know. I've come across other owners of the K24, whether it is in an Element, CRV, Accord or TSX that have a similar issue. But we're in the minority, I think. Could this have contributed to the elevated Al? Shrug. But I'll keep the analysis going to see if there is a trend.

Yup, sounds like slap.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: k24a4

I'll say this about my car, when the ambient temp dips below 50F, usually late Fall/Winter, the engine on cold start makes a distinctive 'clack-clack-clack' under load for 8-12 minutes until the block is fully warm. It can be heard over road noise unless at highway speeds.

The K24 in my CR-V does exactly the same. As other K24s seem to do. Start it above about 55*F, it purrs like a kitten. But below about 55*F, you get some clacking until it warms up. The duration of the clacking seems directly correlate with the ambient temperature. I do believe that it's piston slap. I've tried a few different oils in my car, and there definitely is a difference in this noise. It's not a dramatic difference, but a noticeable one. So far, Mobil 1 0W-20 has been the quietest in it. I'm 95% sure I will move to PYB 5W-20 at the next oil change. Have you found different oils to make that sound seem louder or quieter? Conventional wisdom says that oil selection will have no bearing on piston slap, but it does seem to be the case, at least subjectively in my car. Also: I know that PYB is typically high in molybdenum, but your sample had over 400 ppm of it. That's nearly twice the typical dose that I've seen in PYB. Did you use any additives during that OCI? That's surely a high number. Maybe your particular batch had a spike in it for some reason.

 

[k24a4]

Quote:

Have you found different oils to make that sound seem louder or quieter? Conventional wisdom says that oil selection will have no bearing on piston slap, but it does seem to be the case, at least subjectively in my car. Also: I know that PYB is typically high in molybdenum, but your sample had over 400 ppm of it. That's nearly twice the typical dose that I've seen in PYB. Did you use any additives during that OCI? That's surely a high number. Maybe your particular batch had a spike in it for some reason.

I have not noticed a difference in oils. The Idemitsu sounded quieter at first, but it did not last. The PYB was sm with a can of Lubro-Moly added, hence the elevated moly. I forgot to mention that. Good eye. How long does your 'clacking' last, typically?

 

[ottotheclown]

Compare the TBN numbers too. PYB is sure looking good these days!!!

 

[k24a4]

Originally Posted By: ottotheclown

Compare the TBN numbers too. PYB is sure looking good these days!!!

I agree with that with one caveat: the analysis' were done by different labs, so I'm not sure how accurate the tbn comparison is.