Honda MTF, 3377 miles, 1990 Honda Civic SiR II

[PRF]

car marque: Honda
car model: Civic SiR II
year of manufacture: 1990
chassis: E-EF9
engine: 1595cc B16A DOHC VTEC
transmission: 5 speed Manual Y1 with LSD

Manual Transmission Fluid
oil brand: Honda
oil model: MTF
oil grade:
oil classification:
container markings: printed part no. 00210-01NZ
top up: 0
lube capacity: 1.8 litres

sampled: 09.10.07
miles on oil: 3,377
miles on vehicle: 140,390
oil changed?: yes

metals (OL1052) mg/L
aluminium mg/L: 2 (31*)
antimony mg/L: barium mg/L: boron mg/L: 2
cadmium mg/L: chromium mg/L: calcium mg/L: 2302
copper mg/L: 1 (200*)
iron mg/L: 17 (101*)
lead mg/L: 1 (125*)
molybdenum mg/L: 1
nickel mg/L: phosphorus mg/L: 1019
silicon mg/L: 4 (30*)
silver mg/L: sodium mg/L: 4 (51*)
sulphur mg/L: 6361
tin mg/L: titanium mg/L: zinc mg/L: 1230
vanadium mg/L: FTIR Scan Ext. (ASTM E2412)
oxidation: 33.5
nitration: 3.06
viscosity @ 40 C (ASTM D445) mm2/s: 30.30
Particle Size Analysis (ASTM D6786)
4-6 um (c) cnts/100ml: 6345207
6-10 um (c) cnts/100ml: 390900 (Slightly evlevated abnormal value)
10-14 um (c) cnts/100ml: 21626 (Slightly elevated abnormal value)
14-21 um (c) cnts/100ml: 4080
21-38 um (c) cnts/100ml: 307
38-70 um (c) cnts/100ml: 0
>70 um (c) cnts/100ml: 0
retained solids ppm (ASTM D4898) ppm: 3520 (0.50*)
particle quality index (OL1028): 11
total acid number (ASTM D974) mgKOH/g: 2.20

(*) are caution values for engine.

Comments by Oil Check
Particle count is slightly elevated for 6-14 micron
Other results are satisfactory
Recommend new oil be sampled at manufacturers recommended intervals to assess condition and monitor wear.

-----------------------------------------------

For the past 30,407 miles I have been using Honda MTF in my SiR II's 5MT.
Changed previously at every 12,429 miles.
My SiR II is not just my daily driver, and restoration in progress.
But also used for club level motorsport events like Dual Sprints, Bent Sprints, Motorkhana, and Trackdays.
Since starting to enter my SiR II into local club motorsport events.
I have decided to increase the frequency of MTF Changes to every 3,107 miles.
As I am nursing a graunching third gear synchro.

Earlier this month I changed the engine oil, oil filter, and 5MT fluid.
And took used oil samples for both my first time, and the car's during my ownership.
The past 3,377 miles has included four Dual Sprint club motorsport events, a single day of Track Testing with sessions lasting fifteen laps.
Not to mention daily driving chores.
The used oil analysis was made by Oil Check

 

[INDYMAC]

Was this the new Honda MTF (green label, white bottle cap)?

 

[unDummy]

With such planned short intervals, there is no need to waste money on the Honda MTF. Just about any SAE30 or 10w30 "small engine, diesel engine, or motorcycle" oil would work just as well. Gm syncrhomesh is also another option. Shop on price even though I'd rather see Amsoil MTF or Redline MTL in there.

This looks pretty good. But, simply multiply mileage and wear poinst x10, and the Honda MTF looks like nothing special. It also doesn't help that you drive it like 'the way it should be driven'. "Worked vehicles" should always have shorter then required intervals.

Stick with the
Pay for a 100c visc. 40c visc is worthless. Its is a little low and one can assume that fluid sheared into a 20wt. See if lab can substitue 100c visc for the 40c visc.

Particle size analysis here isn't needed. Don't bother opting for it. There is no filter or virgin analysis to compare to. Without a filter, those numbers look high. What do you expect from ANY splash/soaked lubed & unfiltered gearbox? Those particle counts do make a good argument for more frequent transfer case, front/rear-end, and gearbox "change intervals" for ALL vehicles.

If you do rebuild the gearbox one day, the particle counts also make an argument for filtration. Tap the case for a couple of fittings, use an electric oil pump and remote filter kit, and actively clean up the fluid. You could even place the return tap never a hot spot(diff) to actively cool the area. IR temp gun is your friend.

 

[PRF]

INDYMAC
Honda MTF as sold by Honda NZ is in a black container, with black label and black bottle cap.
I'll take a photo of it and host it.
Then post it here FYI.

unDummy
Thanks for your feedback.
Years ago I tried Pennzoil Turbo 10W30 mineral oil in a Honda 5MT, which worked OK.
But by accident due to low stock I tried Honda MTF again.
And I was surprised at how much better shifting was by comparison, particularly cold shifts.
I'm reluctant to move away from something that works.
But I have heard a complaint of one of the more experienced racers in the NZ Honda Club forum.
Of Honda MTF having to be changed more frequently when used in competition.
Which is what lead me to used oil analysis, and finding this forum.

I've started investigating who locally stocks Amsoil, and Redline.
What improvements in the results I posted can I expect from using Amsoil MTF, or Redline MTL?
Or is it simply a case by case analysis that will bear this out?

I'm looking forward to the next MTF change, and sample.
I'll also take a virgin oil sample for reference.
Plus ensure the test's you've recommended be included.

I do plan to rebuild the 5MT late next year, all going to plan.
As the 2nd-3rd synchro is not keen on full rev upshifts.
So am nursing it until then.
And I'm sure the LSD could do with a rebuild.
Not to mention a thorough cleaning of the 5MT internals.
Thanks for the tips regarding oil pump, remote filter, and IR temperature gun.
Much appreciated.

 

[Mr Nice]

Honda MTF will make a trans shift better than regular motor oil, the only down side to the Honda fluid is that it thins out very quickly.

I was using HDEO 10w30 in an old 1998 Honda with 170K miles and there is a noticeable difference between the two lubes.

 

[Bror Jace]

I liked unDummy's comments with the following exceptions and comments:

I think wear looks kinda high ... I'd have expected the numbers to be about half what they were based on some UOAs here ... especially motorcycles with shared engine/tranny sumps (slightly different, I know).

The tranny oil before this was changed fairly often you say? Read my paragraph above and an an exclamation mark or two.

I also think there's more to MTF than just a special label on a bottle of motor oil. Nothing really special ... except that it appears to be friction modified for synchros (hence the shift quality you feel). That alone may be enough to justify its use. Try to buy it on-line at a discount from Manchester Honda or similar outfit.

Pennzoil, GM, Chrysler, etc ... syncromesh fluids are kinda thin for use in Hondas. Red Line MTL is (last I saw) just slightly thinner than Honda MTF and I've used it in Hondas for well over 100,000 miles and the tranny was still very good when I got rid of the car at 132,000 miles (just started to get a little notchy).

I have a 2006 Civic and will be changing mine out soon. Gonna use the last of my MTL-P as well as some Red Line MTL (don't have enough MTL-P alone).

Filtration sounds like a good idea ... if only they came that way from the factory.