Honda and the 5W-20 Myth

Gary Allan · Apr 26, 2004

quote:

Why hasn't Ford put electric cooling fans in their lines of trucks? This would yeild a nice solid 2-3 mpg on their worst offender's while only raising cost maginally.

Well they might when trucks are included under CAFE

quote:

Go ahead - look up my UOA's. I'm running 6000 mile OCI's on Havoline 5w20 (manfacturer OCI is 3,000 severe, 5,000 normal)...

Not bad ..you had spectacular results with 5-30 ..wear was up on your final UOA. Now let's see you move to Texas and get the same results. Your environment is made for this oil (or is that the other way around

) ..that is, it's a "well suited" product for your use given your location.

I do applaud you for actually going the OEM OCI on any oil. You're one of the few.

Anyone from Texas willing to "go the distance" with this weight oil??

Btw- I used Mobil 1 5w-20 when it came out without reservations. I used it ...and then one day ...it was no longer available.

batterycar · Apr 28, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by tenderloin:
All for .00000001 mpg. gain.

Yeah sure

Multiply .00000001 mpg by the millions of cars Ford/Honda sell, and you'll get a +1 MPG in the CARB. That makes the government happy, and allows more low-mpg but very profitable SUVs to be sold.

Anyway, I used 5W-20 in my Honda Insight, drove it 7500 miles, and found nothing wrong. The analysis is posted here.

[ April 28, 2004, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: batterycar ]

JohnBrowning · Apr 28, 2004

I still worry about wear displacement. With out a good study of the UOA generated by these vechiles running 5W20 and a accompning tear down and weighing of al parts their is no way to know.

THe UOA for the Honda engines tends to be rather low in wear metals. It is hard to paint a good picture of how much material is comeing from wich part with these low wear numbers.

My main concern is that timeing componet wear is going to be the primary wear items. If this is the case what looked like a lightly wearing engine could be a ticking time bomb!If most of the iron is comeing from your timeing chain who is going to suspect this over your rings?

We already have evidence of excessive timeing chan wear in vechiles useing 5W20. In Japan their was a big push to increase the limit on phosphorus(sp) limits for 5W20 oils. The hope is that this will allow for better timeing chain wear. We also have seen the modular Ford V8's have timeing chain issues. I do not know all the details for the ford so that might be unrelated to their use of 5W20.

I also do not know why anyone would compare 5W20 to 5W30. Dino 5W30 has been shown to preform poorly in most engine oil tests that simulate real world engine conditions. Most dino 5W30's shear badly and are entirely too volitile. Dino 10W30 and 5W40 are much better for a comparison. Truthfuly 5W20 are semi-synthetic and should only be compared to semi-synthetic oil.

Tones · Apr 28, 2004

Maybe I am missing something, but to all you who complain about 5W-30 shearing: who cares? If all you are looking for is a 20 weight oil anyway, even dino 5W-30 can shear all it wants to and probably still be higher viscocity than some of the 20 weight oils out there.

I find it interesting that even Honda's own 5W-20 branded oil tested out to be a low 30 weight in this VOA. Ford aside, I really think the whole 5W-20 thing is a marketing ploy for Honda. Remember that one article where Honda said they easily met CAFE numbers with 5W-30s. They said they were just doing because they were a "green" company.

jbas · Apr 28, 2004

quote:

Truthfuly 5W20 are semi-synthetic and should only be compared to semi-synthetic oil.

But requiring 5W-20 with some synthetic in it is then a clever way for Ford to ENSURE that some of the protection/benefits inherent in synthetic oil will be used in their engines. My apologies if this is redundant - maybe this has been said 40 different ways already.

MNgopher · Apr 28, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Not bad ..you had spectacular results with 5-30 ..wear was up on your final UOA. [/QB]

Actually, the 5w30 results were no better than the 5w20 results when you factor in mileage. Yes, wear was up on the last interval, however the average temp through the period was much colder compared to the similar interval on 5w30. I didn't stretch the 5w30 runs because of concerns of excessive shearing, increased insolubles, and poorer TBN retention in cold weather. I am able to do so using 5w20.

As far as climate goes, nothing I can do about that, cause I ain't moving!

All I do know is that it was 91 today, and we do get our fair share of stinky hot weather in the summer, so I know I am testing things for warm weather performance in the summer... Perhaps not as much as Texas, but we don't live in igloos all year around!

MNgopher · Apr 28, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:

quote:

Why hasn't Ford put electric cooling fans in their lines of trucks? This would yeild a nice solid 2-3 mpg on their worst offender's while only raising cost maginally.

Click to expand...

Well they might when trucks are included under CAFE

They already are under CAFE rules. All trucks under 8500 GVW are subject to the light truck CAFE number, currently 20.7 mpg. This inlcudes all 1/2 ton trucks and light duty 3/4 ton trucks.

Patman · Apr 28, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Tones:
Maybe I am missing something, but to all you who complain about 5W-30 shearing: who cares? If all you are looking for is a 20 weight oil anyway, even dino 5W-30 can shear all it wants to and probably still be higher viscocity than some of the 20 weight oils out there.

But that thinning is the result of it's viscosity index improvers breaking down, and dirtying up your engine. I think it's better to have an oil start at 9cst and stay there for the entire interval than to have one that starts at 10 and finishes at 9.

Hankrr · Apr 28, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Patman:

quote:

Originally posted by Tones:
Maybe I am missing something, but to all you who complain about 5W-30 shearing: who cares? If all you are looking for is a 20 weight oil anyway, even dino 5W-30 can shear all it wants to and probably still be higher viscocity than some of the 20 weight oils out there.

Click to expand...

But that thinning is the result of it's viscosity index improvers breaking down, and dirtying up your engine. I think it's better to have an oil start at 9cst and stay there for the entire interval than to have one that starts at 10 and finishes at 9.

But I thought some of the good Syn. 5w-30's don't even use any viscosity index improvers??

People keep saying it shears so much but I think they are talking about crapy oils not good quality Syn. oils.

I'm not losing any sleep over it but I believe a quality Syn. 5W-30 offers a wider margin of protection and won't shear hardly at all in the 5K change's which I follow.

Wish people would quit over stating the 5W-30 shear thing.........

Hankrr · Apr 28, 2004

My bigest complaint concerning Honda's 5w-20 oil spec. is their "one size fits all" rule.

I mean...... I drive my car through the 120 degree desert at speeds close to or exceeding 100 mph during the summer. That engine is HOT under those conditions and the 20W with thin to much to offer as much protection as a good 30W oil. And NO a good 30w Syn. oil won't shear as badly as people keep saying. I don't like to go past 5k no matter which oil I'm using.

I can see the 5W-20 being used up north where it's colder and especially during the winter but there is just no way it's going to protect as well under extreme hot demanding conditions.

Time will tell but I'm willing to bet both my Honda engines are going to out last the ones running the 20w oils..........

bottgers · Apr 29, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Hankrr:
My bigest complaint concerning Honda's 5w-20 oil spec. is their "one size fits all" rule.

I mean...... I drive my car through the 120 degree desert at speeds close to or exceeding 100 mph during the summer. That engine is HOT under those conditions and the 20W with thin to much to offer as much protection as a good 30W oil. And NO a good 30w Syn. oil won't shear as badly as people keep saying. I don't like to go past 5k no matter which oil I'm using.

I can see the 5W-20 being used up north where it's colder and especially during the winter but there is just no way it's going to protect as well under extreme hot demanding conditions.

Time will tell but I'm willing to bet both my Honda engines are going to out last the ones running the 20w oils..........

Depends on whether you're running full syn or dino. If you're running full syn, you're probably right. If you're talking about dinos, the engines would probably last longer on the 5W-20. When talking about dinos, the 5W-20's are superior to the 5W-30's.

Tones · May 1, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by bottgers:
If you're talking about dinos, the engines would probably last longer on the 5W-20. When talking about dinos, the 5W-20's are superior to the 5W-30's.

I don't think this statement has been substantiated. We have plenty of evidence that 5W-30 dinos are fine. In fact, a lot of evidence can be found in this thread, starting with post #4.

integrare · May 5, 2004

I have called Honda asking specifically about 5w-20 in the hot 120 degree Arizona sun. I mentioned that my 2002 Accord calls for 5w-20, but the dealer fills with 10w-30 here. The person whom I was speaking to said that Honda allows dealers to choose which motor oil they feel is best for their area. This made sense to me since it is so hot here. I also asked her to reference the 2000 year model Accord (which calls for 5w-30) and she said that there haven't been any mechanical changes from the 2000 model to the 2002 model.

Motorbike · May 5, 2004

A few of the better 5w-30 dino's with the better basestocks and premium vi improvers are really pumping at low temp these days . Even if they do thin out to say a 9.3 cSt one might factor in a little fuel dillution and make a swag at an oil becoming a 8.9 from it .

Now a concern might be these new 7.4 - 8.8 cSt 5w-20's might be more stable but if 20 out of 100 cars suffer fuel dillution and thin the oil even more , factor in some poor maintenance habits well , it could make for some very poor used cars in the future especially the std shift models used as the everyday hotrod .

Time will tell if they start throwing the rods out of the engine block

Honda and the 5W-20 Myth

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