Hello all, First I want to say what a wonderful board you guys have here and all of the information has been really great. I'm curious about honda's reccomendation of 5w-20 for a civic. I read somewhere that the 5w-20 rating was just for fuel economy and 5w-30 is the norm in europe and the jdm market. Is there any truth to this? Also, my car (04 w/ 12k miles) sees buffalo winters. It is a short commute to school of only five miles one way. Of course i'll be sure to run it on the highway once a week to get it to temp. Would anyone suggest mixing in a quart of 0w-30 with 5w-20/30 to help startup?
On another note, I checked autozone here (currently at home in nyc) and there werent any bottles of GC. nothing! 0w30 castrol wasn't to be seen at all. Thanks.
honda 5w20 just for economy?
- Thread starter aoar
- Start date
- Status
Just use the recommended 5w-20. I think the automotive engineers that design and build these cars know more about them than people on this and other boards do. There are some good 5w-20 oils on the market, Motorcraft, Pennzoil, Castrol, Havoline and the new Mobil oils are a few that come to mind. There is more to 5w-20 than this fuel economy rap. On the other note, a lot of the Autozones eliminated the slow selling oils and that included 0w-30 GC. And ![[Welcome!]](/forums/graemlins/welcome.gif)
I have 60,000 miles on my wife's 02 Windstar on 5w-20.
I have 60,000 miles on my wife's 02 Windstar on 5w-20.Car owners in some Asian countries do seem to favor higher viscosity blends for whatever reason - right out to 40 "weight". May be a regional climate thing. May just be an established regional mindset thing. There've been scattered reports that some police agencies in really hot areas of the U.S. are switching back to 10W-30 from Ford's recommended 5W-20 due to the presence of increased wear metals in their UOAs. But, in wintertime New York, I'd be more concerned with cold flow at startup. Even in the summer, New York's idea of hot doesn't begin to compare to the desert southwest areas of the U.S. (disrearding humidity) It would be naive to believe that "CAFE" and the threat of EPA sanctions against automakers did not play a part in automakers' decisions to recommend 5W-20 in engines, but stick with Honda U.S.'s recommendation, nevertheless. These are good oils for most, if not all, areas of the country. (And there's no proof that the police cars in hot climates are spitting metal just on the basis of the less viscous blend, either - may be something else entirely unrelated.)
Ray H
"There've been scattered reports that some police agencies in really hot areas of the U.S. are switching back to 10W-30 from Ford's recommended 5W-20 due to the presence of increased wear metals in their UOAs."
What type of metals? a little tin from the rod bearings or steel from the high contact shear pressure overhead cam surfaces in these V8 police engines or steel from that long flapping cam chain/gears?
Overhead cams Honda engines are know for their high shear contact pressure overhead cams also.
Back years ago before anyone outside the lube or auto industry new about the coming of 0/20 and 5/20 oils when they were being looked at to get the CAFE numbers there was and still is concern within the auto industry about increased wear problems and warranty issues. This is now more of an issue with low ZDDP SM grade oils coming out, this is a case of emmissions and fuel economy out weighing wear protection and engine life.
evryone worries about HTHS numbers and a engine needs a minimun vis to offer long life and IMHO only >30wt will do that.
Bruce
quote:If 5w20 is about more than just fuel economy, I for one would like to know what it is about. I've been totally satisfied with a 5w30 and before switching to something else I want to know what is the good reason for doing so. Current usage of 5w30 is so commonplace that changing to 5w20 just adds to confusion. I won't always have the opportunity to do my own oil change...and having to rely on a dealer (grrr) or "Timmy" at the Iffy Lube place to get the job done right doesn't suit me very well. I care about long term engine protection much more than emissions or fuel economy and I prefer to continue using 5w30. I just want some assurance than 5w30 in a 5w20 application is satisfactory, will do no harm and won't void a warranty.
Originally posted by Frank D: Just use the recommended 5w-20. I think the automotive engineers that design and build these cars know more about them than people on this and other boards do. There are some good 5w-20 oils on the market, Motorcraft, Pennzoil, Castrol, Havoline and the new Mobil oils are a few that come to mind. There is more to 5w-20 than this fuel economy rap. On the other note, a lot of the Autozones eliminated the slow selling oils and that included 0w-30 GC. And
aoar: I have an 01' Accord that calls for 5w20.
I have used both 5/20 and 5/30 in this engine and both seem to work fine. I don't know if it is psychological or not but I do feel the engine revs easier on 5w20. I have settled into using 5/30 synthetic in the warmer months and 5/20 or 0/20 in the colder months. I bet you could still find 0w20 Mobil 1 (old stock) in RS Strauss in NYC. If you can't the newer 5/20 Mobil 1 may be just as good in the cold. That's what I'd use in Buffalo winter if I were you.
quote:I'm sure they know far more about the cars that they build than we do, but I'd be willing to wager they rarely have a clue about oil. In Asia, the recommended weight for Honda engines is 15w-40. A far cry from 5w-20! The 5w-20's that are made today are great oils, but there's no margin of protection if the oil was to thin out any like there is in higher weights, by definition. Your car will run fine on any 5w-20/30/40 wt oil. The heavier oils might garner a "sluggish" feeling at mid-to-high RPM's, as you've pointed out. pbm, after seeing the oil flow photos that Mark Mathys posted, I'd use dino only in summer and keep only a good 0w or 5w PAO in the crankcase in winter. Surprisingly to me, those 5w-20 dinos don't flow well at all at -30°F whereas the PAO flows MUCH better at those cold temps. I used to think that M1 was better used in the hot summers, but I'm looking at that from the opposite direction now...that the extreme cold starting could only be helped by PAO-based oils, not any conventional oils. In Buffalo, I suggest running Amsoil or M1 all year round...
Originally posted by Frank D: I think the automotive engineers that design and build these cars know more about them than people on this and other boards do.
quote:They absolutely do. Let me know when we actually get to talk to them. What an engineer knows and thinks and what makes it past corporate agendas / compliance / actuarial review / PR, are very, very different things.
Originally posted by Frank D: I think the automotive engineers that design and build these cars know more about them than people on this and other boards do.
For winter start-up performance, it will be hard to beat M1 5w-20 which is still a 0w-20.
As far as talking to the engineers at Honda that selected 20-weight, here's a direct quote from one of them out of "Lubes & Greases" magazine:
quote:If you need more info, read SAE paper 1999-01-3468 "The Effect of 0w-20 Low Viscosity Engine Oil on Fuel Economy" which outlines some of the testing Honda did with 20-weight and thinner oils. Finally, look at all the excellent 20-weight UOAs on the board. Honda's 4 cyl engines in particular do very well on this grade.
As Honda's Principal Chemist Jeff Jetter puts it, "We're so far ahead of the mpg curve that CAFE was not an issue. We meet EPA requirements easily. But we're a 'green' company and believe that the fuel economy improvement provided by 5w-20 is important. "Also, our testing indicates that engine performance is generally improved with a lighter viscosity grade engine oil, resulting in reduced emissions during cold starts before the catalyst comes on line, when cars emit most of their pollutants... "...Durability is not an issue either. If it were, we wouldn't recommend 5w-20."
Most of the 5-20s have really robust additive packages, and don't rely on viscosity alone.
quote:Robust, but certainly not in terms of zddp. I thought 5w20s had to go more to synthetic to make up for the weaker additive packages, although certainly some other additives, like moly, are being used too.
Originally posted by mechtech: Most of the 5-20s have really robust additive packages, and don't rely on viscosity alone.
Thanks for all the great input.. I will probrably stay with m1 5w20 for the winter.. however i do belive engine longevity should be of greater importance than mileage/emissons. Maybe next summer i'll consider a 30wt.
It would be great if we could get an r&d enginner from one of the major companies to give there opinions here.. off the record of course lol..
LOL...his name is Carpy. He got in some hot water for posting on here... LOL I miss him, he brought some great info to this site.
M1 is a great choice IMO. M1 5w-20 & 5w-30 SM formulas are top-tier.
A guy over at acurazine.com sent this to me about the TSX and Accord, which both share the same engine. TSX calls for a 5w-30, Accord 5w-20. What do you guys think about his comment?
quote:
The Accord and TSX engines might be the same size but there are differences. The I-VTEC system is slightly different on the Accord as the exhaust cam has less lobs than the TSX. The extra cam lobs on the TSX is more geared for performance. The oil pump seems to be the same for the main assembly but they have slightly different internal part numbers. The VTC oil control valve and VTEC spool valves also have different part numbers. I think the different oil weight requirement is somewhat related to the different I-VTEC systems used, as the system requires a certain amount of oil pressure to operate.
I own two Honda Accords. The 1999 takes 5w-30 and my '03 takes 5w-20. When I took delivery on my '03 in January of this year(before I discovered BITOG), I was very concerned about 5w-20 and its effects on engine durability. I spoke to numerous Honda and Ford mechanics, asking them if they have seen any evidence that 5w-20 has limited engine life and if I should switch to 5w-30, in spite of the potential warranty problems. All of them have stated that they have seen no problems with excessive ring or bearing wear with 5w-20 (remember, Honda has been recommending this viscocity oil since 2001, so by now, there are Hondas was a lot of miles using 5w-20). I realize that many people on this board are skeptical about mechanics' knowledge of lubrication, but, in my case, I trust these guys. They know that I want my car to last a long time and I will not buy another car from them if I get incorrect info. In other words, believe it or not, my mechanics would have told me "off the record" to use 5w-30 if the heavier oil translated to increased engine life. I currently use Mobil 1 5w-20 in my '03 Accord (although I just picked up 9 quarts of Penzoil Platinum 5w-20 on sale at Walmart) and my engine runs great. I realize that this is not scientific, but this is my experience. Meanwhile, the UOAs, as people have mentioned, seem to support the belief that 5w-20 works O.K. in Honda engines. Good luck.
I said before in new engines XX/20 is OK but what about the >50,000 mile engine that is getting loose if crank clearences open enough an oil wedge can not form and then its repair time. sorry I'm a old hard head and perfer >30 wt plus any mileage increase is only going to be at most 2-3% at 25mpg that is a <1mpg gain not worth it for me IMHO.
bruce
I'll just swith to 30w on the oci after the warranty is up.
TSX and Accord do share the same engine, coded K24A, just like how Civic Si hatch and Acura RSX Type S both shares K20A.
But the differences:
TSX makes 200hp w/ 7300rpm redline
Accord makes 160hp w/ 6500rpm redline
RSX Type S makes 200hp w/ 7900rpm redline
Civic Si makes 160hp w/ 6800rpm redline
And the power output variation comes from the Acura counterparts are equipped with "vanilla" i-VTEC system with long duration/high lift valvetrain, where as the Honda counterparts are eqipped with what we call "economy" i-VTEC system.
So you see, higher redline and more aggresive valvetrain Honda recommends 5w30.....and 5w20 for those with lower redline and economical valvetrain.
quote:
Originally posted by buster: A guy over at acurazine.com sent this to me about the TSX and Accord, which both share the same engine. TSX calls for a 5w-30, Accord 5w-20. What do you guys think about his comment?
- Status