Honda 5AT and TES-295

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Got a FWD Honda with a 3.5L V6 and 5AT (PN4A). It is higher miles, 185k, but shifts good. I want to keep it shifting good for as long as that J35 engine lives, all while being able to tow at 50%-100% of it's rated towing capacity pretty often. With that in mind - are there any known definite downsides to using a TES-295 ATF? I'm thinking Mobil Delvac ATF. I believe Honda recommends DW-1, but that fluid is more about MPG, rather than maximum protection. So I do expect a small MPG penalty, but just wondering if there is anything else that could cause issues in the long run.
 
While Delvac 1 ATF (TES 295) is robust, the DI package it uses is meant for commercial applications. I recommend its use in a 4x4 transfer case all day long, especially if it has clutches. Not so much where DW-1 is called for.

If you can get this fluid: Mobil 1 LV ATF HP (Dexron HP - blue label):

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Do not get the black label. That's no longer manufactured and just old stock. The black label uses an Afton Chemical DI package that ultimately fails. The blue label uses a high-end additive package from Infineum. I'm using this fluid in my 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe and shifting is perfect. It drives like a new car, I love it. I did three drains and fills and completely replaced the old fluid. This is what you want, not Delvac 1 ATF. You will get some weird shifting with Delvac 1 ATF because it has Dexron III class friction modification chemistry, as that's all that TES 295 calls for.
 
Probably not an issue, but be prepared for potential hard shifts. DW1/Z1 is not necessarily about fuel economy, it was about softening shifts as Honda started to move upmarket back in the early 2000's due to the 'unique' design of the 5AT's.

Personally, I'd stick with one of the knockoff fluids or Maxlife/Castrol Multiwhatever.
 
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It'll probably be fine, or at least as fine as a Honda V6 automatic can be :sneaky:

Maxlife is great stuff. Another good ATF is Castrol Full Synthetic ATF :)

You're brave enough to tow with that transmission? Change the fluid every OCI in that case :D
 
It'll probably be fine, or at least as fine as a Honda V6 automatic can be :sneaky:

Maxlife is great stuff. Another good ATF is Castrol Full Synthetic ATF :)

You're brave enough to tow with that transmission? Change the fluid every OCI in that case :D
He's got a 4 shaft unit. Night and day compared to the 3 shaft models. Lots of them get near 300k before needing rebuilt, and they don't tend to nuke themselves on the way out the door.
 
He's got a 4 shaft unit. Night and day compared to the 3 shaft models. Lots of them get near 300k before needing rebuilt, and they don't tend to nuke themselves on the way out the door.
This^^^4 Shaft units "lube" a lot better!

I usually stick to DW-1 on Honda clutched-shafted units as they are quite the departure from Planetary Carrier automatics.
 
What's the owners manual say?
I don't remember the year, but if you require the standard visc Z1, then I can see why you might want to avoid LV Dw-1.

Since both are HFM'd ATFs, I'd want an ATF that has that multi/universal fluid capability. You might get aggressive non-slipcontrolled shifting with a non-HFM'd fluid. At least Honda understands, and unlike other manufacturers, the TCU programming shouldn't give you a CEL or a transmission death with alternative fluids. Shift quality is the downside and for you to test.

If you want to test an Allison fluid, I'd stick the TES-295/468 and trial a TES-668 fluid. The 668 seems to address 'smoother' shifts, TC lockup quality, and durability of clutches. It might be smooth enough for you, and some list DexronII/III compatibility.

Otherwise, fill with it with DW-1, improve on ATF temperature control and filtration, and keep driving.
 
Got a FWD Honda with a 3.5L V6 and 5AT (PN4A). It is higher miles, 185k, but shifts good. I want to keep it shifting good for as long as that J35 engine lives, all while being able to tow at 50%-100% of it's rated towing capacity pretty often.
What ATF do you use in it currently ? Maybe add a transmission cooler but I'd stick with DW-1.

It'll probably be fine, or at least as fine as a Honda V6 automatic can be
Did you have bad experiences with Hondas and their transmissions ?
 
I usually stick to DW-1 on Honda clutched-shafted units as they are quite the departure from Planetary Carrier automatics.
This. Honda AT's are quite different from a planetary unit and their fluid composition is equally unique. Some additive manufacturers have stated that their multi-vehicle products can provide sufficient wear protection and acceptable shift quality, but that is debatable:

 
This. Honda AT's are quite different from a planetary unit and their fluid composition is equally unique. Some additive manufacturers have stated that their multi-vehicle products can provide sufficient wear protection and acceptable shift quality, but that is debatable:

Thank you for posting this. Just finished reading that whole thread. Never realized how much Automated Manual Transmission is different from Step-Shift. And, TBH, didn't realize that Honda still made AMT. For some reason I thought it was a basic Step Shift by this point.
Looks like I'm sticking to DW-1, since it apparently does not have a substitute. Also will try to fit the biggest trans cooler I can in there, just in case...
 
So… I’ve used M1 ATF in prior honda 4-speeds, and as @ctechbob mentioned, the shifts are certainly hard. BUT, if you add lubeguard Black to it, at precisely the measured dose, the shifts return to normal, at least in the case with a DW1-spec 4-speed. It was eerily quieter, and I think I lost a full mpg.

my particular trans had a shift flare issue with it, and the mobile 1 + LG black allowed me to fine tune the shift firmness overall. I started with less than the recommended LG dose and then slowly increased it until a good compromise was reached between flare and harshness.

I think you could do the same, as long as you find an ATF with similar viscosity. a thicker fluid in my experience slows the process of each shift, so that’s not great. But - you’re sort of rolling the dice. there are risks with messing with ATF fluids. I did have a CRV transmission develop problems on maxlife, even though many folks swear to maxlife in honda ATs. One option… and this is where I finally landed in my accord, was largely Honda ATF, then just a quart of M1 atf and the smallest amount of LG black to make it all balance out. Drove it a long time that way, and at that point started adopting the “less is more,” if anything has to be done.

note - I would not try any of this sort of shenanigans in a Chrysler automatic. substitutions for ATF-3 in their 3 and 4 speed transaxles were known to cause the computer to compensate for the friction property changes in such a way as to prematurely wear out the clutches. There really are some risks in going too far off reservation.
 
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I think you could do the same, as long as you find an ATF with similar viscosity. a thicker fluid in my experience slows the process of each shift, so that’s not great.
I assume:

Thicker fluid = higher line pressure = harder shifts? I could be wrong.
 
I assume:

Thicker fluid = higher line pressure = harder shifts? I could be wrong.
That would make total sense? And the. LG black is a friction modifier which eased them back up? I’d assumed at the time that it was just a friction modifier thing, but the m1 ATF made Dexron III claims which was probably thicker than DW1?
 
What was going on with it ?
The crv had about 60k on it when I swapped to ML. About 5k miles into it, it started holding 2nd gear longer than it should from time to time, then banging into 3rd. By 7.5k miles it was doing it a lot, and upwards to over 4K rpm. my wife took me for a drive and in that drive it was always holding consistently higher, and once I saw 5k rpm under no load and the drop to 3rd was awful. I did 3 drain fills back to Honda fluid and drove it for a few days myself. It got better, but was never quite the same.

now… the one thing I don’t know, is if the previous owner had put something else in there before I did. I don’t know if my fill of ML was replacing honda fluid, and perhaps that caused a problem, or if the factory fill came out. I’ve since heard of one other similar story, but mine seems an outlier. Regardless, I’ve stayed with oem, or amsoil, in most cases.
 
(3) drain and refills should be enough to get it back to where it was before, but the fact is, it's just voodoo magic with mixing old and new fluid. I know the "math" says you should have mostly DW-1 in there but the real world can't assure that.

Do you still have it ? Have you checked the screens on the 2-3 shift solenoid and the 4-5 shift solenoid ? You could try cleaning them. Not sure how much $ you'd want to put into it but once you have them removed, you could replace them with new (OEM Honda only, IMO) solenoids. They can be expensive and not knowing they're the issue, it could be money down the drain.

Edit: Just looked.... A '15 CR-V has a CVT transmission. That doesn't use DW-1.
 
He's got a 4 shaft unit. Night and day compared to the 3 shaft models. Lots of them get near 300k before needing rebuilt, and they don't tend to nuke themselves on the way out the door.
This^^^4 Shaft units "lube" a lot better!

I usually stick to DW-1 on Honda clutched-shafted units as they are quite the departure from Planetary Carrier automatics.
Noob question, but Google wasn't helpful... When did Honda switch to 4 shaft from 3 shaft? And was it a change across the board, or only affected some models?
 
Noob question, but Google wasn't helpful... When did Honda switch to 4 shaft from 3 shaft? And was it a change across the board, or only affected some models?
The Accords and TL's switched for the 07 model year I think it was. Not sure about the Oddy's, and I think the Ridgeline was always a 4 shaft unit, but I could be way way off on that. I don't know as much about the Ody/RL's.
 
No idea about 3-shaft vs 4-shaft, but for Odysseys, starting in 2005, their transmissions were "improved" or fixed. I presume it's related to the # of shafts ???
They added some oil jets to the 3 shaft units, and backfitted them to the earlier units under recall as well, pretty sure though that the new trans didn't arrive until 2007. Can't confirm that though. 2007 was the first year of the Ridgeline though and I'm pretty sure that they just took that trans and spread it across the line at that point, more or less.
 
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