Home Solar Electric

[exranger06]

Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
If you are only interested in saving money, all your questions are easy to answer. Do you see solar panels on your neighbours house? How about across the street? NO?

If it made economic sense to have solar panels on your roof, everybody would have them.

You ever consider that may be because a lot of people don't have the upfront cash to install the system in the first place? That doesn't mean the system won't pay back over time.

 

[exranger06]

Originally Posted By: expat

How are the panels rated, KW Hours?

kW, not kWH.

Originally Posted By: expat

What is normally required to tie-in with the regular house utility?

You'll need to call your utility before construction even begins. There's a whole application process, and the utility might have their own design requirements (where the electrial connections are made, disconnect switches, etc). However if you're hiring a contractor that does a lot of installs in the area, they probably already know all that stuff and will deal with the utility so you don't have to.

 

[OneEyeJack]

My brother lives out in the sticks and is completely off the grid. He is self educated on all this stuff. He said that the biggest problem was adjusting the family life style. It took less than a year and now they don't know any better. The live in an area with lots of sun and no snow. He has 3 wells and one of them produces almost boiling hot water, his trump card for the whole system. Well, that and the mine shaft that goes down and down and down and then has branches in 2 directions. The mine shaft is his air condition and heating system.


The only way this stuff really works is if you educate yourself and built the systems yourself, at least as much as you can. If you live in a community where you're not allowed to take care of yourself then there's no use getting started unless you're willing to move.

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
My brother lives out in the sticks and is completely off the grid. He is self educated on all this stuff. He said that the biggest problem was adjusting the family life style. It took less than a year and now they don't know any better. The live in an area with lots of sun and no snow. He has 3 wells and one of them produces almost boiling hot water, his trump card for the whole system. Well, that and the mine shaft that goes down and down and down and then has branches in 2 directions. The mine shaft is his air condition and heating system.


The only way this stuff really works is if you educate yourself and built the systems yourself, at least as much as you can. If you live in a community where you're not allowed to take care of yourself then there's no use getting started unless you're willing to move.


Agree.
As I have friends that live off the grid, and we have Vacationed in their house when they have been away.
It takes some adjustment.

They find themselves where they often have Maxed out their battery capacity, and have (often literally) Power to burn, or they are short and burning expensive Diesel (normally in Late Fall or Spring when they are short on Solar and/or short on Micro Hydro)

In our case, ON the grid, with the possible option to 'sell' power, it just seems a matter of Crunching the numbers, once we know what the Deal is.

Cost to set up, estimated power production, cost of power to Buy, Price of power to sell and estimated cost of up-keep.

Honestly, my gut says this will not be a Money Maker. But Hey, it might be fun, if only to chat over free coffee and cookies.

 

[IndyIan]

If you are in Ontario, here are the latest microFIT rates
http://microfit.powerauthority.on.ca/sit...02014-09-30.pdf
This is down from 80 cents a KWh for ground mount systems at the beginning....
Anyways, the days of 15% returns are over, but you can read all the microFIT literature before you go and see how much they lie about.
If you are serious about it, just look up a local installer who is still in business and talk to them. The equipment is much cheaper now, so you can still make some money with a roof mount if you have a south facing roof. If you don't then its probably a waste of time to do an install.

 

[VNTS]

In most case unless you get subsidized tax credit, it doesn't work, I work at a Utility and have talked to the Distribution Engineers(I work in Substations) and the results from net metering show about 80% of the installations do not meet the criteria for output and payback the charlatan pushing these things show and in most cases the people who buy them do not get guarantee clauses from the energy outfits and PE's who stamp the prints, and then they come whining back to us wondering why their system puts out didle, seriously stay clear of this stuff, it doesn't work and the paybacks are 15-30 years! Note the Utility I work at, is not in the generation business so we have no dog in the hunt other than biting our toung since we are crippled by our PUC who makes us accommodate these folks who want to install this junk, oh one thing you should consider before you plop this on your roof, go talk to a roofer and ask how much increase in cost come time to replace the roof with the panels in the way??

Most of the folks in our area installing these systems are the millionaires with beach front second homes who milk the system and taxpayer for all they are worth.


Originally Posted By: expat
Not a Green Freak....only interested if it saves a $


I understand that Solar to Hot water is likely a better option, but the option of selling power back to the utility (especially at cost) might appeal. Sell in summer, Buy in Winter.
Just want to get some figures at hand before attending the Seminar.

I have talked to people that have such a system in the U.K. Denmark and France, typically they pay more for Power (Kw hour) than I do, and in some cases there are subsidies, so that skews the #'s

But I'm thinking North America.

I also have friends that live off the Grid, they do use some solar, but their limitation is battery storage.

 

[JustinH]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
My parents and inlaws have solar systems. My aunt and uncle do too. All love them. The inlaws have the fastest breakeven/best ROI because they pay 56c/kWh or so for electric from the utility.

Panel prices keep coming down. IMO the main things to consider first are:

Exposure - do you have enough tree-free exposure at the right direction to maximize sun capture?

Roof coverage - how does snow impact these in terms of duration where they will be covered?

Panel and converter type? What type, and what is the composite efficiency of the system on good and bad days?

Panel coverage? Does the DC invert on a per panel basis or do you need to maintain a high DC bus voltage to a central inverter?

Cost? Long story short, what is the installed cost for a system? What is the derating factor set for your location and latitude, and how many fair weather days are assumed? What is the kWh production rate given these assumptions, and what is the expected break-even duration?


So you say 56 cents per KWH in New Jersey?

I'm looking at my reliant bill here in Central Texas, it reads 0.059000 per KWH. With all the taxes and fees, account fee, etc, I'm looking at a bill for $95.71 for 941kwh of usage.

So, would your electric bill be roughly 10x mine in New Jersey? Nearly $500 for one month if you used 941kwh?

 

[sleddriver]

I am in the process of reinstalling my two solar water-heater panels on the roof. I've had the system for about 30yrs now. Since I'm in an all-electric neighborhood, I pay very little to heat water.

I had to turn it off and take it all off the roof first in order to install new shingles. It's a pain most people don't consider when getting one of these.

Since we don't have hard freezes here, my system circulates water, not glycol. No heat exchanger either. It uses a simple differential temp amp to control the pump motor and fill/drain valve.

Re: Photo-voltaic panels. Ask to see a derating chart vs. temp. Also ask for a payback schedule with NO rebates. Finally, ask for documention on output vs age. These things don't last forever nor do they continue to put out the kW's 15yrs from now as they did when new.

Down here PV panels should be water cooled (free hot water) to minimize derating due to high tempertures.

 

[expat]

Just a follow up.
So I attended the seminar a few weeks back, it was quite interesting.
The Bottom line is: There is a group locally (mainly Greenies) that have looked into off setting their power consumption from the utility company by installing PV panels,
Working as a group they are able to acquire some purchasing power, and bring prices down. They also share 'expertize' and work as a labour CoOp.

The PV units they favour are made in China (they pretty much all are) and mounted and fitted, each with a micro inverter (24v to 220v AC), in Ontario, Canada.
The units have a 25 year warranty that also covers performance limits.
(but what that means if the company goes Belly Up, who knows)

The units (they favour 6-12 on a roof) feed directly into the electrical panel via a switch (to isolate the units)

The bottom line:
For a 12 panel installation .......$10k
Payback on investment 4% per year*

*Could improve if utility prices rise.

For me, it's not on.
But if PV prices continue to fall and or utility prices rise, it could be a consideration.

Might be something to look into in a new housing development.
The Green factor (here) would likly have some appeal.

They did crunch the #'s on Solar hot water , but it really did not work (unless you are in a situation where you really use a lot of hot water or have a swimming pool.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: expat
Not a Green Freak....only interested if it saves a $


I understand that Solar to Hot water is likely a better option, but the option of selling power back to the utility (especially at cost) might appeal. Sell in summer, Buy in Winter.
Just want to get some figures at hand before attending the Seminar.

I have talked to people that have such a system in the U.K. Denmark and France, typically they pay more for Power (Kw hour) than I do, and in some cases there are subsidies, so that skews the #'s

But I'm thinking North America.

I also have friends that live off the Grid, they do use some solar, but their limitation is battery storage.





A pellet stove for home heating would be better for the OP. The newer designs are ultra clean. Popular Mechanics or Popular Science did a comparison between the two. Solar is sexy and gets lots of taxpayer subsidizing.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: JustinH
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
My parents and inlaws have solar systems. My aunt and uncle do too. All love them. The inlaws have the fastest breakeven/best ROI because they pay 56c/kWh or so for electric from the utility.

Panel prices keep coming down. IMO the main things to consider first are:

Exposure - do you have enough tree-free exposure at the right direction to maximize sun capture?

Roof coverage - how does snow impact these in terms of duration where they will be covered?

Panel and converter type? What type, and what is the composite efficiency of the system on good and bad days?

Panel coverage? Does the DC invert on a per panel basis or do you need to maintain a high DC bus voltage to a central inverter?

Cost? Long story short, what is the installed cost for a system? What is the derating factor set for your location and latitude, and how many fair weather days are assumed? What is the kWh production rate given these assumptions, and what is the expected break-even duration?


So you say 56 cents per KWH in New Jersey?

I'm looking at my reliant bill here in Central Texas, it reads 0.059000 per KWH. With all the taxes and fees, account fee, etc, I'm looking at a bill for $95.71 for 941kwh of usage.

So, would your electric bill be roughly 10x mine in New Jersey? Nearly $500 for one month if you used 941kwh?



Where did I say that my inlaws live in NJ?

Don't assume anything. They live in the Caribbean, where power is generated with large gas turbines burning diesel.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: expat
Just a follow up.
So I attended the seminar a few weeks back, it was quite interesting.
The Bottom line is: There is a group locally (mainly Greenies) that have looked into off setting their power consumption from the utility company by installing PV panels,
Working as a group they are able to acquire some purchasing power, and bring prices down. They also share 'expertize' and work as a labour CoOp.

The PV units they favour are made in China (they pretty much all are) and mounted and fitted, each with a micro inverter (24v to 220v AC), in Ontario, Canada.
The units have a 25 year warranty that also covers performance limits.
(but what that means if the company goes Belly Up, who knows)

The units (they favour 6-12 on a roof) feed directly into the electrical panel via a switch (to isolate the units)

The bottom line:
For a 12 panel installation .......$10k
Payback on investment 4% per year*

*Could improve if utility prices rise.

For me, it's not on.
But if PV prices continue to fall and or utility prices rise, it could be a consideration.

Might be something to look into in a new housing development.
The Green factor (here) would likly have some appeal.

They did crunch the #'s on Solar hot water , but it really did not work (unless you are in a situation where you really use a lot of hot water or have a swimming pool.


12 panels is like 2400W at full output, maybe a bit more. So there is a lot of installation cost in there. A 260W peak panel (I derated to 200w for above given your location) is like $200 and a micro inverter is $250. So the materials alone are like $450/200w.

That strikes me as fairly expensive installation, but I may be wrong.