hm oil additives ??

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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Thanks Trajan, but I think he's just messin' with everyone by trying to be cute and flippant.
Maybe...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
He never did say if his question was sincere or flippant.
Triple Picard palm smile
 
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what do the maxlife oil additives do? Are they seal swelling type or just cleaning and conditioning?
 
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MolaKule

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All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.
Quote:
Various organic Phosphates, Nitriles, aromatic hydrocarbons, and esters have been developed to affect: 1. what component in an engine or transmission, or hydraulic systems? 2. And how does it affect this component?
Quote:
These are all seal conditioners, which work by one or more of these methods: 1. Cleaning the seal, 2. swelling the seal slightly by replacing elastomer molecules. In 1980, Lubrizol patented a seal swell additve using "beta-thiopropionitrile" chemical which replaces the nitrile atoms lost to wear, oxidation, and sludge encroachment. In addition, the ester di(2-ethylhexyl)-adipate (a di-ester), or similar ester equivalents, are often added to PAO and Group III base fluids, at about 5%, to improve seal swell.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...well#Post530224
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.
You may have seen me grousing in the Defy thread. Without getting into intellectual property or a lot of hand waving, how much more seal conditioners could an SN/GF-5 HM oil have in comparison to the "regular" SN/GF-5 version of the oil? When they came out, HM seemed to mean extra AW, extra seal conditioners, and extra viscosity. Now, with many transitioning to actual ILSAC certification, the only "extra" I see is on the pricing side of things.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Thanks Trajan, but I think he's just messin' with everyone by trying to be cute and flippant. He never did say if his question was sincere or flippant.
It was a sincere question. Your initial response lead me to sacrifice 15 min. Of my time trying to figure out what you meant by double palming though smile. I'm ok with it though as I have a few new definitions stored in my brain now such as palming palm trees and palming to preform magic tricks.
 
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In addition, the ester di(2-ethylhexyl)-adipate (a di-ester), or similar ester equivalents, are often added to PAO and Group III base fluids, at about 5%, to improve seal swell.
Is the above the main ingredient of the ATP-205 Reseal/Blue Devil additives?? Both have that same strong alcohol-ester smell to them.
 

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Originally Posted By: dailydriver
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In addition, the ester di(2-ethylhexyl)-adipate (a di-ester), or similar ester equivalents, are often added to PAO and Group III base fluids, at about 5%, to improve seal swell.
Is the above the main ingredient of the ATP-205 Reseal/Blue Devil additives?? Both have that same strong alcohol-ester smell to them.
No, not even close.
 
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.
You may have seen me grousing in the Defy thread. Without getting into intellectual property or a lot of hand waving, how much more seal conditioners could an SN/GF-5 HM oil have in comparison to the "regular" SN/GF-5 version of the oil? When they came out, HM seemed to mean extra AW, extra seal conditioners, and extra viscosity. Now, with many transitioning to actual ILSAC certification, the only "extra" I see is on the pricing side of things.
I wonder the same thing myself. Is there any answer on this yet? ~ Triton
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.
Quote:
Various organic Phosphates, Nitriles, aromatic hydrocarbons, and esters have been developed to affect: 1. what component in an engine or transmission, or hydraulic systems? 2. And how does it affect this component?
Quote:
These are all seal conditioners, which work by one or more of these methods: 1. Cleaning the seal, 2. swelling the seal slightly by replacing elastomer molecules. In 1980, Lubrizol patented a seal swell additve using "beta-thiopropionitrile" chemical which replaces the nitrile atoms lost to wear, oxidation, and sludge encroachment. In addition, the ester di(2-ethylhexyl)-adipate (a di-ester), or similar ester equivalents, are often added to PAO and Group III base fluids, at about 5%, to improve seal swell.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...well#Post530224
This doesn't tell me a thing about whether or not Maxlife uses seal conditioners, swellers or both.
 

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Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.
Quote:
Various organic Phosphates, Nitriles, aromatic hydrocarbons, and esters have been developed to affect: 1. what component in an engine or transmission, or hydraulic systems? 2. And how does it affect this component?
Quote:
These are all seal conditioners, which work by one or more of these methods: 1. Cleaning the seal, 2. swelling the seal slightly by replacing elastomer molecules. In 1980, Lubrizol patented a seal swell additve using "beta-thiopropionitrile" chemical which replaces the nitrile atoms lost to wear, oxidation, and sludge encroachment. In addition, the ester di(2-ethylhexyl)-adipate (a di-ester), or similar ester equivalents, are often added to PAO and Group III base fluids, at about 5%, to improve seal swell.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...well#Post530224
This doesn't tell me a thing about whether or not Maxlife uses seal conditioners, swellers or both.
Sure it does:
Quote:
These are all seal conditioners, which work by one or more of these methods: 1. Cleaning the seal, 2. swelling the seal slightly by replacing elastomer molecules.
By replacing elastomer molecules in the seal material, the seal's volume is increased which swells it.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.
Quote:
Various organic Phosphates, Nitriles, aromatic hydrocarbons, and esters have been developed to affect: 1. what component in an engine or transmission, or hydraulic systems? 2. And how does it affect this component?
Quote:
These are all seal conditioners, which work by one or more of these methods: 1. Cleaning the seal, 2. swelling the seal slightly by replacing elastomer molecules. In 1980, Lubrizol patented a seal swell additve using "beta-thiopropionitrile" chemical which replaces the nitrile atoms lost to wear, oxidation, and sludge encroachment. In addition, the ester di(2-ethylhexyl)-adipate (a di-ester), or similar ester equivalents, are often added to PAO and Group III base fluids, at about 5%, to improve seal swell.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...well#Post530224
This doesn't tell me a thing about whether or not Maxlife uses seal conditioners, swellers or both.
Sure it does:
Quote:
These are all seal conditioners, which work by one or more of these methods: 1. Cleaning the seal, 2. swelling the seal slightly by replacing elastomer molecules.
By replacing elastomer molecules in the seal material, the seal's volume is increased which swells it.
and again, this says nothing of Maxlife. you are making generic comments that run the gauntlet. Not every oil has the same ingredients. You are saying what can be done, not what is done with maxlife.
 
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MolaKule

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Post #3786228:
Quote:
All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.
MaxLife is a formulated HM oil, therefore, MaxLife contains seal conditioners. The obvious logic is inescapable.
 
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Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.
You may have seen me grousing in the Defy thread. Without getting into intellectual property or a lot of hand waving, how much more seal conditioners could an SN/GF-5 HM oil have in comparison to the "regular" SN/GF-5 version of the oil? When they came out, HM seemed to mean extra AW, extra seal conditioners, and extra viscosity. Now, with many transitioning to actual ILSAC certification, the only "extra" I see is on the pricing side of things.
I wonder the same thing myself. Is there any answer on this yet?
Mola, are you trying to torture me, or just waiting until I settle down on the Defy thing? wink
 

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When they came out, HM seemed to mean extra AW, extra seal conditioners, and extra viscosity. Now, with many transitioning to actual ILSAC certification, the only "extra" I see is on the pricing side of things
AW's- AW's don't have to be made of CC killing ZDDP. Extra AW's such as non-metallic polymer esters are very expensive. Shear stable VII's and shear resistant, high viscosity base stocks can keep bulk viscosities from having to be increased. Extra seal conditioners also raise the price of the formulation. Now what was the question? grin
 
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VIIs (or Viscosity Modifiers) are large polymer molecules that help an oil maintain viscosity over temperature extremes, but can can be sheared by mechanical shearing action. This shearing action tends to "scissor" these molecules. What we mean by shear stable VII's is that the majority of VII molecules in a VII (or Viscosity Modifier) tend to be stronger and resist shearing upon shearing loads. Additionally, those molecules that do shear tend to reform or reattach after shearing to later maintain viscosity. A recent SAE paper showed that for engine oils, certain Olefin CoPolymers (OCP's) tend to be more shear stable than Hydrogenated Styrene Isoprene (HSI) copolymers.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
AW's- AW's don't have to be made of CC killing ZDDP. Extra AW's such as non-metallic polymer esters are very expensive.
Would a cheap HM oil have them? I have heard of ZDDP compounds that are less problematic, too, as per Valvoline's MaxLife claims. And I know that products like Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 have low phosphorous numbers, but obviously aren't weak in the AW department.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Shear stable VII's and shear resistant, high viscosity base stocks can keep bulk viscosities from having to be increased.
True, but an extra couple points on HTHS for an older application doesn't hurt, and that's often been the attraction about HM oils, at least for those of us (i.e. OCD BITOGers) who know about the difference, much less care about it.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Extra seal conditioners also raise the price of the formulation.
But, how much extra is there between a "normal" SN/GF-5 oil and an SN/GF-5 HM oil, and, for comparison's sake, perhaps a non-ILSAC HM oil? Of course, that could be a bit of a loaded question, but obviously there are limits as to how much could be used in an SN/GF-5 oil versus something else, or am I mistaken in that? How much wiggle room is there, really? For example, I know that pre-ILSAC MaxLife did a pretty good job with leaks in the old F-150 before the rebuild. I never had the opportunity to try ILSAC rated MaxLife. How would it be expected to compare?
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Now what was the question?
There are a couple. Is Shell nuts or am I? How many different SN/GF-5 oils does one company have to have on one shelf before it's enough? wink And, a little less tongue in cheek, if QSGB is SN/GF-5 and nothing else, isn't an SN/GF-5 (and nothing else) Defy pretty darned close to functionally equivalent? I get a bit annoyed because the price differential is $6 to $10 a jug. It's not huge, of course, but that difference alone killed PU in Canada, since it is treated as functionally equivalent to PP.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Post #3786228:
Quote:
All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.
MaxLife is a formulated HM oil, therefore, MaxLife contains seal conditioners. The obvious logic is inescapable.
and still doesn't answer the question. The question was conditioners, swellers or both? As you have repeated over and over, there are many things a HM oil "can" do but they all don't do everything. Your logic has let you down once again.
 

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Originally Posted By: Garak
But, how much extra is there between a "normal" SN/GF-5 oil and an SN/GF-5 HM oil, and, for comparison's sake, perhaps a non-ILSAC HM oil? Of course, that could be a bit of a loaded question, but obviously there are limits as to how much could be used in an SN/GF-5 oil versus something else, or am I mistaken in that? How much wiggle room is there, really? For example, I know that pre-ILSAC MaxLife did a pretty good job with leaks in the old F-150 before the rebuild. I never had the opportunity to try ILSAC rated MaxLife. How would it be expected to compare?
Okay, let's pick a number. Let's say an average non-HM has an integrated additive pack which includes 5% seal swell by volume. I can add about 0.5% to 1% more seal conditioner by volume before seals are "over conditioned."
Quote:
There are a couple. Is Shell nuts or am I? How many different SN/GF-5 oils does one company have to have on one shelf before it's enough? wink And, a little less tongue in cheek, if QSGB is SN/GF-5 and nothing else, isn't an SN/GF-5 (and nothing else) Defy pretty darned close to functionally equivalent? I get a bit annoyed because the price differential is $6 to $10 a jug. It's not huge, of course, but that difference alone killed PU in Canada, since it is treated as functionally equivalent to PP.
I can only present a plausible opinion - More product choices increases the manf. income stream.
 
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