I have a 2001 Dodge Durango, with the 45RFE tranny. It calls for ATF+4 fluid, which I have always used in it. I recently brought it to a new mechanic for a fluid and filter change, and I found out that he put in a Multi-vehicle ATF. None of the multi-vehicle fluids I’ve seen cover ATF+4, and all the forums warn against using anything but ATF+4. When I complained to the owner, he produced a spec sheet that claims that it meets the Chrysler ATF+3 and ATF+4 OEM specs. The spec sheet is from a company called SC Fuels, but they just look like the bulk fluid distributor, not the manufacturer. The product is called “Performance 500 HiVis MVP ATF”. I found a “Performance 500” ATF, produced by General Petroleum (GP), but it does not make the same claims, nor does it have the same specs. I did find a Hi Vis MVP ATF made or distributed by Neo Synthetics: http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/atf-hi-vis-mvp/ The first two paragraphs in the description are identical to the spec sheet that the tech gave me, and the OEM specs covered are the same, and the test values are close, but not identical. I suspect that they are produced my the same manufacturer, but with a dufferent formulation. The Performance 500 HiVis MVP ATF specs that they put in my vehicle are: Gravity API 31.5, Flashpoint 425F, Pour Point -50F, Viscosity @-40C Brookfield 18,200, Viscosity @ 100C 7.3, Viscosity Index 190. The tech test drove it, and I drove it home (about 2 miles), but other than that, I’ve left it sitting in my driveway until I decide what to do. None of these brands are on the Chrysler list of licensed ATF+4 brands, so I am suspicious. Should I leave the fluid in there and just change it out at a shorter maintenance interval, or should I swap it out now? Does anyone have any opinion or experience with this stuff?
“HiVis MVP” ATF instead of ATF+4 in ’01 Durango
- Thread starter Amdel
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Ask the owner to sign something to warranty your transmission?
This is a classic case why I always do this myself.
Makes you wonder how many folks with Chrysler transmission had bone heads like this change the fluid, customer has no clue, year later trans takes a dump and then clueless customer swears off Dodge or Jeep and bloviates what junk transmissions they make.
This is a classic case why I always do this myself.
Makes you wonder how many folks with Chrysler transmission had bone heads like this change the fluid, customer has no clue, year later trans takes a dump and then clueless customer swears off Dodge or Jeep and bloviates what junk transmissions they make.
You need to have this non approved fluid completely removed. ATF+4 is a very strict fluid that uses only of 2 base oil producers and 1 additive package producer. There is no such thing as a multi-vehicle ATF that meets the frictional properties of ATF+4. Bring this mechanic a list of approved ATF+4 fluids and show him this is not on it. This fluid is of on viscosity anyways ATF+4 should be be 7.5 cst. Not having the correct fluid in a Chrysler is a sure fire way to ruin it. You should simply tell this mechanic that he must now completely exchange the entire fluid out now with a approved fluid, at his cost of course. If he gives you grief show him the owners manual and ask him where the fluid he used is in the manual. Trust what everyone else here has said and not this mechanic. He surely didnt design this transmission and the fluids required.
In this case I would request to have Chrysler ATF+4 fluid installed.
But I do believe there are multi-vehicle ATFs that are as good or better (than ATF+4) for Chrysler vehicles but they are from the high end companies like Amsoil & Redline.
But I do believe there are multi-vehicle ATFs that are as good or better (than ATF+4) for Chrysler vehicles but they are from the high end companies like Amsoil & Redline.
This is beyond stupid. What Thax said is correct. Even if this joker warranties your transmission, that won't stop it from failing. People have to understand, back in the day, Chrysler used dex and later dex-II in all their auto trannys. Actually almost anything would work. It wasn't until the advent of lockup torque converters, and later electronic shifting controls, that something better was needed. In order to provide the smooth shifting that customers wanted, gear changes caused a programed slippage with a solid lockup. This causes a localized heating that quickly cooks the oil. Other car makers have the same issues and have addressed it in their own ways. Chrysler chose to create a carefully formulated fluid and provide a licensing program that guarantees the performance and quality of it. Anyone can mix an ATF, if it passes the +4 license and can prove it, it's good to go. There are a few ATF's that claim to be +4 compatible, fine, run it for 200,000 miles and see if it holds up.
If you accept this, then it's on you if it fails. If it were me I would be all over this guy...
Good luck,
Wayne
If you accept this, then it's on you if it fails. If it were me I would be all over this guy...
Good luck,
Wayne
Originally Posted By: Amdel
I recently brought it to a new mechanic for a fluid and filter change, and I found out that he put in a Multi-vehicle ATF. None of the multi-vehicle fluids I’ve seen cover ATF+4, and all the forums warn against using anything but ATF+4. When I complained to the owner, he produced a spec sheet that claims that it meets the Chrysler ATF+3 and ATF+4 OEM specs. The spec sheet is from a company called SC Fuels, but they just look like the bulk fluid distributor, not the manufacturer. The product is called “Performance 500 HiVis MVP ATF”. I found a “Performance 500” ATF, produced by General Petroleum (GP), but it does not make the same claims, nor does it have the same specs. I did find a Hi Vis MVP ATF made or distributed by Neo Synthetics: http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/atf-hi-vis-mvp/ The first two paragraphs in the description are identical to the spec sheet that the tech gave me, and the OEM specs covered are the same, and the test values are close, but not identical. I suspect that they are produced my the same manufacturer, but with a dufferent formulation. The Performance 500 HiVis MVP ATF specs that they put in my vehicle are: Gravity API 31.5, Flashpoint 425F, Pour Point -50F, Viscosity @-40C Brookfield 18,200, Viscosity @ 100C 7.3, Viscosity Index 190.
SC Fuels is a distributor in California and parts of the south.
SC Fuels Lubricants
The closest match I found in my database in your general area is Unitran MVP ATF from Lubricating Specialties Company in Pico Rivera:
UNITRAN MVP ATF
but they don't claim ATF+4 compliance.
Genuine ATF+4 is licensed by Chrysler and requires the use of a specific additive package and no other.
The licensed product exhibits exceptional low temperature performance, with a viscosity index in the 195-200 range, and a Brookfield Viscosity @ -40C, cP in the range of 8500-9400.
Whatever you got, it is not genuine ATF+4.
If this were something along the lines of Red Line C+ ATF, also not licensed, I might go with it. That ATF has better specs than the licensed product, with a VI of 213, a pour point of -76F, and so on. Red Line is a known company and if something goes amiss I know where they live.
Personally I'd dump this stuff. Fluid is cheap, vehicles are expensive, and no-name fluid is risky.
Petroleum Quality Institute of America
Whether you pay for it or the garage does the right thing depends on your relationship with the mechanic. You live in a state with strong consumer protection laws and using an unapproved ATF without a prior okay probably violates a variety of consumer protection regulations. On the other hand, life is too short for fights.
I recently brought it to a new mechanic for a fluid and filter change, and I found out that he put in a Multi-vehicle ATF. None of the multi-vehicle fluids I’ve seen cover ATF+4, and all the forums warn against using anything but ATF+4. When I complained to the owner, he produced a spec sheet that claims that it meets the Chrysler ATF+3 and ATF+4 OEM specs. The spec sheet is from a company called SC Fuels, but they just look like the bulk fluid distributor, not the manufacturer. The product is called “Performance 500 HiVis MVP ATF”. I found a “Performance 500” ATF, produced by General Petroleum (GP), but it does not make the same claims, nor does it have the same specs. I did find a Hi Vis MVP ATF made or distributed by Neo Synthetics: http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/atf-hi-vis-mvp/ The first two paragraphs in the description are identical to the spec sheet that the tech gave me, and the OEM specs covered are the same, and the test values are close, but not identical. I suspect that they are produced my the same manufacturer, but with a dufferent formulation. The Performance 500 HiVis MVP ATF specs that they put in my vehicle are: Gravity API 31.5, Flashpoint 425F, Pour Point -50F, Viscosity @-40C Brookfield 18,200, Viscosity @ 100C 7.3, Viscosity Index 190.
SC Fuels is a distributor in California and parts of the south.
SC Fuels Lubricants
The closest match I found in my database in your general area is Unitran MVP ATF from Lubricating Specialties Company in Pico Rivera:
UNITRAN MVP ATF
but they don't claim ATF+4 compliance.
Genuine ATF+4 is licensed by Chrysler and requires the use of a specific additive package and no other.
The licensed product exhibits exceptional low temperature performance, with a viscosity index in the 195-200 range, and a Brookfield Viscosity @ -40C, cP in the range of 8500-9400.
Whatever you got, it is not genuine ATF+4.
If this were something along the lines of Red Line C+ ATF, also not licensed, I might go with it. That ATF has better specs than the licensed product, with a VI of 213, a pour point of -76F, and so on. Red Line is a known company and if something goes amiss I know where they live.
Personally I'd dump this stuff. Fluid is cheap, vehicles are expensive, and no-name fluid is risky.
Petroleum Quality Institute of America
Whether you pay for it or the garage does the right thing depends on your relationship with the mechanic. You live in a state with strong consumer protection laws and using an unapproved ATF without a prior okay probably violates a variety of consumer protection regulations. On the other hand, life is too short for fights.
I would have asked what he was going to put in... before he put it in.....
I can't count the number of people who believe that "just throwing some Lubegard in it" will make any fluid compatible with the ATF+4 spec.
I agree with Thax- ATF+4 is one of the most rigorously specified automotive fluids out there- there are NO "multi-vehicle" ATFs that actually meet the specs, nor any that I would fully trust. I know one person who is doing a long-term test of plain old Dexron VI in a 41TE because he believes the specs have gotten sufficiently close to each other, and so far so good... but not for me yet.
If this were an older 41TE or 42LE transmission, I'd be very much in the "get it out and get it out NOW!" camp because they're so notoriously picky and delicate. But the 545RFE is a whole lot more forgiving, and *probably* would be OK with it at least on a short interval.
Still, if it were mine I'd get the fluid out immediately. It irks me that manufacturers are now so tightly controlling fluids, but I do see the method to the madness most of the time. Engineering the fluid is not all that different from engineering a mechanical part these days.
I agree with Thax- ATF+4 is one of the most rigorously specified automotive fluids out there- there are NO "multi-vehicle" ATFs that actually meet the specs, nor any that I would fully trust. I know one person who is doing a long-term test of plain old Dexron VI in a 41TE because he believes the specs have gotten sufficiently close to each other, and so far so good... but not for me yet.
If this were an older 41TE or 42LE transmission, I'd be very much in the "get it out and get it out NOW!" camp because they're so notoriously picky and delicate. But the 545RFE is a whole lot more forgiving, and *probably* would be OK with it at least on a short interval.
Still, if it were mine I'd get the fluid out immediately. It irks me that manufacturers are now so tightly controlling fluids, but I do see the method to the madness most of the time. Engineering the fluid is not all that different from engineering a mechanical part these days.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I can't count the number of people who believe that "just throwing some Lubegard in it" will make any fluid compatible with the ATF+4 spec.
It depends on which Lubegard you are referring to.
Lubegard Red or LUBEGARD® Automatic Transmission Fluid Protectant may clean varnish from valves.
The other Lubegard ATF products such as LUBEGARD® Highly Friction Modified-ATF Supplement and LUBEGARD PLATINUM® Universal ATF Protectant should NOT be used in or with any modern automatic transmission fluid as these products may modify the u/v friction coefficients at the clutch surfaces.
This also applies to the friction modification products from here:
http://www.lifeautomotive.com/Products/ATfluidprotectants.asp
Quote:
Engineering the fluid is not all that different from engineering a mechanical part these days.
I would have to respectively disagree with you there.
I can't count the number of people who believe that "just throwing some Lubegard in it" will make any fluid compatible with the ATF+4 spec.
It depends on which Lubegard you are referring to.
Lubegard Red or LUBEGARD® Automatic Transmission Fluid Protectant may clean varnish from valves.
The other Lubegard ATF products such as LUBEGARD® Highly Friction Modified-ATF Supplement and LUBEGARD PLATINUM® Universal ATF Protectant should NOT be used in or with any modern automatic transmission fluid as these products may modify the u/v friction coefficients at the clutch surfaces.
This also applies to the friction modification products from here:
http://www.lifeautomotive.com/Products/ATfluidprotectants.asp
Quote:
Engineering the fluid is not all that different from engineering a mechanical part these days.
I would have to respectively disagree with you there.
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
440Magnum said:I can't count the number of people who believe that "just throwing some Lubegard in it" will make any fluid compatible with the ATF+4 spec.
It depends on which Lubegard you are referring to.
Lubegard Red or LUBEGARD® Automatic Transmission Fluid Protectant may clean varnish from valves.
The other Lubegard ATF products such as LUBEGARD® Highly Friction Modified-ATF Supplement and LUBEGARD PLATINUM® Universal ATF Protectant should NOT be used in or with any modern automatic transmission fluid as these products may modify the u/v friction coefficients at the clutch surfaces.
This also applies to the friction modification products from here:
http://www.lifeautomotive.com/Products/ATfluidprotectants.asp
Quote:
Engineering the fluid is not all that different from engineering a mechanical part these days.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you there.
Thanks VNTS. I do most work on my vehicles myself as well, for this very reason. Things were getting busy, so I decided to bite the bullet and hand it off to someone else for a change. I did my research before just handing it off to him, so I was very surprised to have this problem. I think he is an honest guy; I think that the producers, marketers, and distributors of this stuff are the biggest problem.
Originally Posted By: Brybo86
I would have asked what he was going to put in... before he put it in.....
Since I usually do my own repairs, I figured this would be something I would not even need to ask about. Looks like I was dead wrong on that count! Lesson learned!
I would have asked what he was going to put in... before he put it in.....
Since I usually do my own repairs, I figured this would be something I would not even need to ask about. Looks like I was dead wrong on that count! Lesson learned!
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Personally I'd dump this stuff. Fluid is cheap, vehicles are expensive, and no-name fluid is risky.
Petroleum Quality Institute of America
Whether you pay for it or the garage does the right thing depends on your relationship with the mechanic. You live in a state with strong consumer protection laws and using an unapproved ATF without a prior okay probably violates a variety of consumer protection regulations. On the other hand, life is too short for fights.
Thanks Wilhelm_D. This is is all very good info. I'm using informed answers like yours and other posters to show the owner. I'm trying to work out an arrangement with him to do the labor to get this stuff out, and I'll pay for the right fluid. Thanks for the link to the Petroleum Quality Institute. I'm contacting them to see what they have to say about the producer of the fluid, and their claims of meeting / exceeding ATF+4 specs.
Personally I'd dump this stuff. Fluid is cheap, vehicles are expensive, and no-name fluid is risky.
Petroleum Quality Institute of America
Whether you pay for it or the garage does the right thing depends on your relationship with the mechanic. You live in a state with strong consumer protection laws and using an unapproved ATF without a prior okay probably violates a variety of consumer protection regulations. On the other hand, life is too short for fights.
Thanks Wilhelm_D. This is is all very good info. I'm using informed answers like yours and other posters to show the owner. I'm trying to work out an arrangement with him to do the labor to get this stuff out, and I'll pay for the right fluid. Thanks for the link to the Petroleum Quality Institute. I'm contacting them to see what they have to say about the producer of the fluid, and their claims of meeting / exceeding ATF+4 specs.
Thanks eljefino, VNTS, Thax, Donald, Oldmoparguy1, Wilhelm_D and 440Magnum. That was all good info and advice. I'm going get that fluid purged and replaced with legitimate ATF+4, either with the mechanic's help or without. Much appreciated!
Just some food for thought...
First, I have had no experience with the fluid used in your transmission.
For those saying that multi vehicle product cannot work and will result in death, I feel this is an exaggeration. Having worked in an auto shop that used a multi vehicle fluid for several applications (Kendall Versa Trans), I can say that it works well in ATF +4 apps. Prior to my arrival at that shop, it had been used for years- and is still in use since I left last year. The owner used it exclusively in all his vehicles (all Dodge and one Ford) and after many tens of thousands of miles, has had zero issues.
More food for thought.
At that shop, we primarily used Certified Transmission for re-man'ed auto boxes. When the app was a basic GM or Ford unit that required a Dex/Merc product, the customer (us) was left to supply our own fluid. When the app was one that took Merc V, or ATF +4 or whatever, THEY supplied the fluid. What fluid??? In the 3 1/2 years I worked there, it was ALWAYS Peak multi vehicle ATF.
What I'm getting at is that not all multi vehicle fluids are evil. I will not speak for the stuff the OP is dealing with though.
Now for the million dollar question... What do I or would I use?
Now that I have a much larger stake in a shop and am personally tied to it and am able to make decisions for my self, I primarily use the correct OEM approved fluid.
If that were my car, I'd likely be a bit nervous, since it's not coming from a major supplier with a long (and high profile) track record.
I will say that as a concerned owner, you should have taken an active role in your vehicle's maintenance. Prior to servicing- especially with a "new" shop, you should have asked questions and made arrangements for them to use a product of your liking.
First, I have had no experience with the fluid used in your transmission.
For those saying that multi vehicle product cannot work and will result in death, I feel this is an exaggeration. Having worked in an auto shop that used a multi vehicle fluid for several applications (Kendall Versa Trans), I can say that it works well in ATF +4 apps. Prior to my arrival at that shop, it had been used for years- and is still in use since I left last year. The owner used it exclusively in all his vehicles (all Dodge and one Ford) and after many tens of thousands of miles, has had zero issues.
More food for thought.
At that shop, we primarily used Certified Transmission for re-man'ed auto boxes. When the app was a basic GM or Ford unit that required a Dex/Merc product, the customer (us) was left to supply our own fluid. When the app was one that took Merc V, or ATF +4 or whatever, THEY supplied the fluid. What fluid??? In the 3 1/2 years I worked there, it was ALWAYS Peak multi vehicle ATF.
What I'm getting at is that not all multi vehicle fluids are evil. I will not speak for the stuff the OP is dealing with though.
Now for the million dollar question... What do I or would I use?
Now that I have a much larger stake in a shop and am personally tied to it and am able to make decisions for my self, I primarily use the correct OEM approved fluid.
If that were my car, I'd likely be a bit nervous, since it's not coming from a major supplier with a long (and high profile) track record.
I will say that as a concerned owner, you should have taken an active role in your vehicle's maintenance. Prior to servicing- especially with a "new" shop, you should have asked questions and made arrangements for them to use a product of your liking.
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
I will say that as a concerned owner, you should have taken an active role in your vehicle's maintenance. Prior to servicing- especially with a "new" shop, you should have asked questions and made arrangements for them to use a product of your liking.
Thanks The_Eric. When I drop anything off with a mechanic, I include a note with my drop-off, with very specific instructions as to what I what done. In this case, for example, I made it clear that I wanted both filters replaced. In my first draft note, I said something like "please use only a Chrysler / Dodge approved ATF+4 fluid". Before dropping off the car, I unfortunately removed that part of the instructions. My son is an auto tech, and he tells me all the time how many techs respond negatively when customers tell the techs how to do their jobs. So, I deleted the "approved fluid" comment, figuring that it was a no-brainer that the shop would use an approved fluid. In fact, after discussing it with him, I believe that he feels it is an approved fluid. Until seeing the receipt for the work, and then talking the owner about the fluid that was shown on the receipt, I had never heard of any multi-vehicle fluid that claimed to be applicable for Chrysler. All the multi-vehicle fluids I've seen on the shelf at auto parts stores will show applications for Ford / GM and others, but not Chrysler. Lesson learned!
I will say that as a concerned owner, you should have taken an active role in your vehicle's maintenance. Prior to servicing- especially with a "new" shop, you should have asked questions and made arrangements for them to use a product of your liking.
Thanks The_Eric. When I drop anything off with a mechanic, I include a note with my drop-off, with very specific instructions as to what I what done. In this case, for example, I made it clear that I wanted both filters replaced. In my first draft note, I said something like "please use only a Chrysler / Dodge approved ATF+4 fluid". Before dropping off the car, I unfortunately removed that part of the instructions. My son is an auto tech, and he tells me all the time how many techs respond negatively when customers tell the techs how to do their jobs. So, I deleted the "approved fluid" comment, figuring that it was a no-brainer that the shop would use an approved fluid. In fact, after discussing it with him, I believe that he feels it is an approved fluid. Until seeing the receipt for the work, and then talking the owner about the fluid that was shown on the receipt, I had never heard of any multi-vehicle fluid that claimed to be applicable for Chrysler. All the multi-vehicle fluids I've seen on the shelf at auto parts stores will show applications for Ford / GM and others, but not Chrysler. Lesson learned!
I see. I suppose some mechanics could get cranky about having a list handed to them- I never have though. Some people are just particular.
Stop back and talk to him- see what he'd charge to do again with the fluid of your liking. Maybe he'd cut you a deal.
Stop back and talk to him- see what he'd charge to do again with the fluid of your liking. Maybe he'd cut you a deal.
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
I see. I suppose some mechanics could get cranky about having a list handed to them- I never have though. Some people are just particular.
Stop back and talk to him- see what he'd charge to do again with the fluid of your liking. Maybe he'd cut you a deal.
My daughter gave my son a sign something like this: http://carhumor.net/wp-content/uploads/2...es-per-hour.jpg My son thought it was pretty accurate about some techs/shops! I sent the owner an email this weekend, offering to pay for the fluid for a purge, and have him do the labor for free. I'll talk to him on Monday. If he does not agree to my proposal, I'll do it myself next weekend and find another shop in the future.
I see. I suppose some mechanics could get cranky about having a list handed to them- I never have though. Some people are just particular.
Stop back and talk to him- see what he'd charge to do again with the fluid of your liking. Maybe he'd cut you a deal.
My daughter gave my son a sign something like this: http://carhumor.net/wp-content/uploads/2...es-per-hour.jpg My son thought it was pretty accurate about some techs/shops! I sent the owner an email this weekend, offering to pay for the fluid for a purge, and have him do the labor for free. I'll talk to him on Monday. If he does not agree to my proposal, I'll do it myself next weekend and find another shop in the future.
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