High Performance Lubricants Euro Oil PDS

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Sep 9, 2021
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Hi, @High Performance Lubricants.

Do you have any experience or reservations about running the mid-SAPs flavors beyond the usual 10-12k mi computer calculated OCIs in Euro applications calling for full-SAPs in the US?

Context: Recently analyzed a top shelf full-SAPs LL01/229.51/A40 in "spirited" all highway conditions for 10.5k mi and 11 months, and was somewhat surprised to find TBN was about to cross over the virgin TAN. Aware that real world TBN retention can vary wildly even if base number starts low/high in a particular oil. Obviously sampling is still important to gauge long term suitability for an application.

Thanks in advance!
 
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Nov 27, 2017
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I would recommend running the oil to a TBN of 2. I am not a subscriber the notion of changing oil when TAN and TBN cross. There is a difference in strength between these 2 tests. As long as you have reserve alkalinity it matters more than the fact that TAN responds more quickly to weak base.

And you are correct. The real way is to run the oil and look at the TBN via UOA and making sure everything else is in line as well.

I believe Mr Newton spoke up on this subject as well. He has not seen statistical data showing issues after the 2 have crossed.

As always if the vehicle does not use oil, the saps level is pretty irrelevant to after treatment on the vehicle because the oil is in the pan where it belongs.

If you have an oil burner that is a different story.

David
 

OVERKILL

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I would recommend running the oil to a TBN of 2. I am not a subscriber the notion of changing oil when TAN and TBN cross. There is a difference in strength between these 2 tests. As long as you have reserve alkalinity it matters more than the fact that TAN responds more quickly to weak base.

And you are correct. The real way is to run the oil and look at the TBN via UOA and making sure everything else is in line as well.

I believe Mr Newton spoke up on this subject as well. He has not seen statistical data showing issues after the 2 have crossed.

As always if the vehicle does not use oil, the saps level is pretty irrelevant to after treatment on the vehicle because the oil is in the pan where it belongs.

If you have an oil burner that is a different story.

David
I believe @Doug Hillary has also posted on this. The old "rule of thumb" to change at the cross was based on oils that didn't have higher virgin TAN's, which many modern oils now do.
 
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I would recommend running the oil to a TBN of 2. I am not a subscriber the notion of changing oil when TAN and TBN cross...As always if the vehicle does not use oil, the saps level is pretty irrelevant to after treatment on the vehicle because the oil is in the pan where it belongs.

If you have an oil burner that is a different story.

David
I believe @Doug Hillary has also posted on this. The old "rule of thumb" to change at the cross was based on oils that didn't have higher virgin TAN's, which many modern oils now do.

Thank you both for the insight, that changes my perspective.

The implication of lower TBN relative to the ACEA A3/PCMO/HDEO/Supercar lines had me a bit curious.
 
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As always if the vehicle does not use oil, the saps level is pretty irrelevant to after treatment on the vehicle because the oil is in the pan where it belongs.

David
It is just awesome to see this in writing, from an expert who I trust.

I have been pondering this exact issue for over 4 million miles of driving.

Yeah, what difference does SAPS make, if there is excellent cleanliness and protection happening in the first place ?
 
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We are primarily an industrial company. We do have a passion for cars and for racing. The bottom line is we have no intentions on taking over any kind of automotive oils market. What we do is prove ourselves in racing with some very respectable teams that could really choose anyone they want to. We don't pay them, we don't write check #1. The most we do for a team is provide oil. We learn a lot from racing. We take what we learn and apply these things to other products we make. We are extremely fortunate to have a couple of people working with/for us that are cubic smart in our industry. We formulate products making decisions that I doubt a company of any size would ever produce if we published the formula. We simply put a lot higher quality and quantity of chemistry in very good base stocks and the cost would be way too high to interest someone producing large volumes.

We do not seek approvals. We start with approved chemistry and make sound decisions to improve the products from there. We do a lot of testing internally and with 3rd parties to make sure we produce products with integrity. We of course use oil analysis to verify that the products do what they were intended to do which is work in the field. Our staff involved with technical decisions has over 140 years of combined experience. We don't formulate to minimum standards.

With respect to Noack, We start with group III oils and go up from there in our plant. That is rare. We choose good base oils and formulate with low volatility in mind. There have already been examples again in the real world of users that see reduced oil consumption when compared to their previous oil. Is that absolute? Probably not, but not because we didn't make good choices in base oil. We do have a TGA. One of Dr. Rudnicks publications was a method to use a TGA to roughly correspond to a NOACK. Since this is not a problem area for us we don't run NOACK. It's not a problem for me as its is ultimately up to me to be sure we make products with integrity once again.

I met a moderator of BITOG some time ago. We spoke and he began using some of our oils. I chose to get involved with BITOG and am here for people who share the same ideas of looking for a higher quality product. We will likely never be a good match for someone looking for the cheapest oil because we will never be that with respect to price. It does not make sense for us to go through the expense to seek approvals when we are not in the business of cutting corners. If that is not understandable that is completely fine.

David
I'm super curious how would your product go head to head with Redline, not just numbers but actual real world performance. I use only Redline ATF, and Gear oils. For some reason their engine oil seaps past the rear main seal, switch back to Castrol, M1 or Valvoline it's fine. I use either 5/40 or 0/40. Prefer 5/40
 
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Sep 10, 2015
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It is just awesome to see this in writing, from an expert who I trust.

I have been pondering this exact issue for over 4 million miles of driving.

Yeah, what difference does SAPS make, if there is excellent cleanliness and protection happening in the first place ?
That is very true. But you have to take into account oil dilution in a Diesel engine. You can't see from the dipstick how much oil is being consumed if you don't know the dilution percentage.
 
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How do we order?

You can order it through HPL's distribution arm, Advanced Lubrication Inc.


Don't forget to use the code BITOG15 to get a 15% discount.
 
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I'm super curious how would your product go head to head with Redline, not just numbers but actual real world performance. I use only Redline ATF, and Gear oils. For some reason their engine oil seaps past the rear main seal, switch back to Castrol, M1 or Valvoline it's fine. I use either 5/40 or 0/40. Prefer 5/40
Since you use RedLine ATF, I'll throw this in. These are HPL's offerings, if you're ever interested. Just a quick comparo of their current line-up.
Screenshots_2022-11-21-22-58-58.png
 
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