HEMI Oil Pressure Issues (Oil Filter Related)

The Critic

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I came across this thread during an unrelated search:


It appears that some higher efficiency filters may not be able to go the full OLM interval in some HEMI engines.

Any thoughts on this, @ZeeOSix ?
 
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OVERKILL

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I came across this thread during an unrelated search:


It appears that some higher efficiency filters may not be able to go the full OLM interval in some HEMI engines.

Any thoughts on this, @ZeeOSix ?
Unfortunately, since he changed both the oil and filter, we don't know if the recovery was due to the filter or the oil. The oil could have lost viscosity from either shear or fuel dilution, he changed too many variables.
 
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Some engines are just soot monsters. But, its ok, the owners just want to run the oil/filter as long and cheaply as possible.

Few of my engines didn't tolerate certain brands of filters. No biggie. Either you change your oil/filter earlier than planned, or you use a filter that doesn't catch anything. You can't expect the automaker to use a big enough filter anymore.

Amsoil had a oil filter bulletin out for Toyota years back. So, its just not a Hemi issue.

Some think that the filter marketing is better than common sense.

I am still waiting on the PD pump comments. Funny how the real world isn't an ideal world when it comes to filters.
 

ZeeOSix

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I am still waiting on the PD pump comments. Funny how the real world isn't an ideal world when it comes to filters.
LoL ... Ok, I'll bite. From the TSB in post #1.

"AMSOIL EA15K50 Oil Filter Temporarily Not Recommended for Select Ram and GM Applications
We are no longer recommending the AMSOIL EA15K50 Oil Filter for 2007-2013 GM vehicles with the 5.3L engine and 2013-current Ram vehicles with the 5.7L or 6.4L engines. There is no cause for alarm if you or one of your customers is using the EA15K50 Filter with one of the listed vehicles; we are acting out of an abundance of caution. We have sold thousands of AMSOIL EA15K50 Oil Filters to customers with one of the GM or Ram engines listed above. A very small percentage of those customers have reported gauges or check-engine lights indicating slightly lower than normal oil pressure."


Apparently, the PD oil pumps in a "very small percentage" of those vehicles are not up to spec, and/or worn some - and who knows how many miles were on on those vehicles that trip a trouble-code. A filter would have to basically be 100% clogged and have a bypass valve that is too small that would cause the oil pump to either slip a lot because it's pretty worn out, and/or go into pressure relief for the clogged filter to cut oil flow volume to the oiling system.

And what @OVERKILL mentioned in post #42 could be a factor too. Also, thinner oil is harder for a PD oil pump to efficiently due to increased pump slippage as the oil becomes thinner. All kinds of factors that can effect the PD pump.
 
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Pump slippage? About time you acknowledge simple wear tear and pump blow-by. I am not and never was a PD pump defender because the pumps I use are in the real world and have all kinds of problems.

Factors? Yes, the real world is full of "all kinds of factors" that don't act like textbook formulas.

IMHO, the filter is just too small for the application or the filter bypass just is overly restrictive an initiates that pump dump or slip. This is one reason I don't care for all those high bypass PSI filters common with European manufacturers(that now have trickled down to Asian and Domestics).

I bet those 5.7 and 6.4 Hemis would enjoy a single or double remote PH8a filter setup.

My solution for Toyota's Amsoil filter issue was different..... Toyota's have room for +1 or +2 oversized options. Amsoil would rather have you use a tiny Wix or Donaldson replacement.

So, what is the biggest filter that will fit a Hemi? The 22mm thread doesn't have as many options as others and diameter/length would need to be verified.... EAO11, EAO17? Would also need to verify media type and measured surface area.... nothing worse than cutting a larger oil filter only to find small element surface area

Certainly miss the FL-2055!
 

ZeeOSix

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Pump slippage? About time you acknowledge simple wear tear and pump blow-by. I am not and never was a PD pump defender because the pumps I use are in the real world and have all kinds of problems.

Factors? Yes, the real world is full of "all kinds of factors" that don't act like textbook formulas.

IMHO, the filter is just too small for the application or the filter bypass just is overly restrictive an initiates that pump dump or slip. This is one reason I don't care for all those high bypass PSI filters common with European manufacturers(that now have trickled down to Asian and Domestics).
I've pretty much mentioned pump slip in many of these discussions, and I've never said every PD oil pump is perfect or never wear out. Like I said, there are many factors usually involved in these not so straight forward root causes scenario discussions. Re: your bolded statement ... basically what I said, guess you agree.
 

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I've pretty much mentioned pump slip in many of these discussions, and I've never said every PD oil pump is perfect or never wear out. Like I said, there are many factors usually involved in these not so straight forward root causes scenario discussions. Re: your bolded statement ... basically what I said, guess you agree.
Yup, that seems like a strawman being erected just so it could be knocked down.

I wouldn't say pumps have "all kinds of problems", but they do wear, and, in some applications, like GM ones, they can suck air due to failing o-rings. There are also a number of different pump designs, which is going to have an impact on wear, bypass...etc.

I'd also like to know what "slightly lower than normal" oil pressure is.

In the context of the HEMI specifically:

The ECM infers viscosity from oil temperature and pressure. This is done for proper MDS and VCT operation; it's basically a "knowledge" factor for the ECM so it knows what to expect. There's clearly some liberal fudge factor involved to allow for shear, fuel dilution and oil to oil variance, because people have been able to run 30 and even 40 grade oils in the 5.7L and it takes a bit of effort to get it to throw the "wrong viscosity" code. User Clevy had it happen in his Charger R/T with 0w-40 when it was like -40C.

However, that's the upper end of the spectrum, I don't know what the bottom looks like; what it considers the floor for acceptable oil pressure at a given oil temperature and that may be what has resulted in this TSB. The oil pressure is measured AFTER the filter, so if the filter is plugging up and pressure drop across the media is significant to the point where the bypass is being employed at idle, well, if that's a 15psi differential pressure and feed pressure on the pump side is 30psi that gives us 15psi on the side the ECM is reading and that could be enough to trigger a CEL or a "WTH" reaction when reading the gauge. Of course the pump not being on the relief, the same volume of oil is being shuffled, so it's not going to hurt the engine, but it could definitely trigger a code.

On soot, well, port injected engines don't typically generate much in the way of soot and soot particulate is typically small enough to pass through a filter unless it is significantly agglomerating. If this was a DI engine (some of the GM ones in question are) then yeah, I suppose soot agglomeration could be a factor, but with the HEMI, which has never been DI, it would be much less of one. It is however a "dirty" engine by virtue of its combustion chamber design and tends to produce particulate that's large enough to end up in the filter.

An interesting article on DI soot can be found here:

You'll note that the average soot particle is 36nm, which is 0.036 microns according to this calculator:

Since we are talking about filters with high efficiency figures between 15 and 20 microns, clearly DI soot particles aren't plugging filters unless they are agglomerating significantly more than found in that study, which showed a mean length of 153nm and the range extended to 405nm (.4 microns):
The mean skeleton length, LSk and width, WSk were found to be 153 nm and 59 nm, respectively. 66% of the agglomerates presented a skeleton length between 90 nm and 180 nm, with LSk ranging from 53 nm to 405 nm. Long agglomerates with skeleton lengths longer than 300 nm accounted for 9% of the agglomerates. The skeleton width spanned from 33 nm to 102 nm, with 70% of agglomerates in the range 60–80 nm.

Quoting more of the article:
The particle number concentration emitted by GDI engines are generally higher than conventional PFI engines and Diesel engines equipped with Particulate Filter (DPF). Most of the soot produced is expelled from the cylinder with the exhaust gases but a small proportion is transferred from the cylinder to the lubricating oil. Soot is likely to migrate into the oil film early during the expansion stroke [8]; consequently, the morphology, agglomeration and other characteristics of soot-in-oil are likely to be rather different to exhaust soot. Soot-in-oil has not been subject to oxidation processes to the same extent and hence the outer shell structure is more likely to remain intact. Although only a small proportion of the soot formed in the combustion chamber transfers to the engine oil, it contributes to the lubricant degradation. This is certainly a new challenge for the modern GDI engine as soot-in-oil raises concerns upon wear and engine durability.

Now, since the GM engines also have cylinder deactivation and camshaft phasing, they too could be inferring viscosity from oil pressure and thus experiencing the same sort of issue, but I've not researched that.

Ultimately, it sounds like some of these engines just shouldn't be running extended drains with high efficiency filters.

Per @Greasymechtech's query about larger filters, yes, the SRT's spec the larger XG2 (FL-820S) filter (the same filter the older 5.7's spec'd) and it can fit on many of the 5.7's still, though it is tight. I run one on our DT.
 

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However, that's the upper end of the spectrum, I don't know what the bottom looks like; what it considers the floor for acceptable oil pressure at a given oil temperature and that may be what has resulted in this TSB. The oil pressure is measured AFTER the filter, so if the filter is plugging up and pressure drop across the media is significant to the point where the bypass is being employed at idle, well, if that's a 15psi differential pressure and feed pressure on the pump side is 30psi that gives us 15psi on the side the ECM is reading and that could be enough to trigger a CEL or a "WTH" reaction when reading the gauge. Of course the pump not being on the relief, the same volume of oil is being shuffled, so it's not going to hurt the engine, but it could definitely trigger a code.
Anyone know what the bypass valve is set to on the Amsoil EA15K50 filters they recommend not using? The higher the filter bypass valve is set, the less headroom there is before a clogged filter can make a weak oil pump start slipping or hit pressure relief.

The only way a pressure drop can be seen on a pressure sensor located after the oil filter is if there is a decrease in oil flow volume at that point - with viscosity held constant of course. If there was normally a 2 PSI delta-p across the new oil filter with 30 PSI showing on the dash at idle, then the pressure at the output of the pump would be 2+30=32 PSI. If the delta-p across the clogged filter went to 15 PSI (the filter bypass setting) at idle, and the oil volume from the pump didn't change (pump not losing output due to increased slip), then the pump's output pressure would have to increase to 32+13=45 PSI ... but you would still see 30 PSI on the dash gauge because the flow and viscosity didn't change. The pump will keep increasing the output pressure to keep the same volume flowing, up until the pump hits pressure relief. Or if the pump is worn enough to loose pumping efficiency (excessive increased slip) as the output pressure builds, then the output volume could be cut back before the pump ever hits pressure relief. If the pump's pressure relief system is malfunctioning, that too could cause issues in this situation.

On these cars that have the computer monitor oil temperature and pressure for "problems", using an oil filter that loads up fast and builds a lot of pressure drop, combined with a high bypass valve setting and a small flow sized filter bypass opening, which some filters have, I can see how it might cause some flags with the monitoring system if the filter got really clogged and caused the pump to cut back flow for whatever reason.
 
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In a technician group, there has been some recent discussion about Amsoil oil filters causing a P1524 fault and/or cam phaser noises on late-model HEMI 5.7/6.4 engines. I did some searching and found these Amsoil announcements:


Source:
and


Source:
The Amsoil EA oil filter is a high-efficiency oil filter. If this issue is affecting aftermarket high-efficiency oil filters, I would expect the Fram Ultra (and others) to be equally affected. Has anyone observed oil pressure issues from running high-efficiency aftermarket oil filters on the 13+ HEMI 5.7/6.4 engines?
I've ran a Fram Ultra and no oil pressure issues on my 16 Ram 5.7 and I run 5w/30 Mobil 1 HM
 

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Anyone know what the bypass valve is set to on the Amsoil EA15K50 filters they recommend not using? The higher the filter bypass valve is set, the less headroom there is before a clogged filter can make a weak oil pump start slipping or hit pressure relief.
FRAM lists it for the XG10060 as 9-15psi, while the sheet that @Greasymechtech posted shows the EA15K50 at 18-24psi.
The only way a pressure drop can be seen on a pressure sensor located after the oil filter is if there is a decrease in oil flow volume at that point - with viscosity held constant of course. If there was normally a 2 PSI delta-p across the new oil filter with 30 PSI showing on the dash at idle, then the pressure at the output of the pump would be 2+30=32 PSI. If the delta-p across the clogged filter went to 15 PSI (the filter bypass setting) at idle, and the oil volume from the pump didn't change (pump not losing output due to increased slip), then the pump's output pressure would have to increase to 32+13=45 PSI ... but you would still see 30 PSI on the dash gauge because the flow and viscosity didn't change. The pump will keep increasing the output pressure to keep the same volume flowing, up until the pump hits pressure relief. Or if the pump is worn enough to loose pumping efficiency (excessive increased slip) as the output pressure builds, then the output volume could be cut back before the pump ever hits pressure relief. If the pump's pressure relief system is malfunctioning, that too could cause issues in this situation.

On these cars that have the computer monitor oil temperature and pressure for "problems", using an oil filter that loads up fast and builds a lot of pressure drop, combined with a high bypass valve setting and a small flow sized filter bypass opening, which some filters have, I can see how it might cause some flags with the monitoring system if the filter got really clogged and caused the pump to cut back flow for whatever reason.
I'm considering the filter being more restrictive than the engine in my conjured up scenario there, as that's the only way I can see it impacting pressure enough to trigger a code.
 
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OVERKILL

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Good filter choice. Compare the bypass pressures.
Interestingly, the EAO11, which is the FL-820S equivalent (XG2 equivalent) has the 11-17psi bypass, vs the 18-24psi for the EA15K50, which is much more similar to the pressure we see for the FRAM (which is likely OE spec).

It sounds like at least one of the issues is that AMSOIL is trying to use one filter for multiple applications where it is clear that it should be different filters with different bypass pressures.
You cool kids are too funny. First worshipping PD pumps as perfection, and then finally after a year or so, learning about pump slip. I guess no one will mention how perfect PD pumps are anymore. Or maybe not? Enough of the textbook mumble jumble. Doesn't make you look any smarter or capable or give you credibility.
I would hope that we are all adults here, so sounding like petulant child certainly isn't helping further the discussion.

On pump slip? I know I've mentioned it in the past:
2019:
2021:
 

ZeeOSix

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"Enough of the textbook mumble jumble. Doesn't make you look any smarter or capable or give you credibility."

Humm, I see someone doesn't seem to understand the "textbook mumble jumble". Is showing how the oil pressure drops throughout an oiling system too mind blowing? :unsure: 😄
 
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ZeeOSix

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'You cool kids are too funny. First worshipping PD pumps as perfection, and then finally after a year or so, learning about pump slip."

I've talked about pump slip a long time ago, and also meantion pump wear and slip quite often in these "oil pressure loss mystery" threads. I've known about pump slip for decades - something that people learn in those mumble jumble textbooks, lol.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/using-oil-filter-for-multiple-ocs.244359/post-3909946
 

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FRAM lists it for the XG10060 as 9-15psi, while the sheet that @Greasymechtech posted shows the EA15K50 at 18-24psi.
Some of that high bypass setting on the Amsoil filter might be due to it being somewhat flow restrictive to start with - Andrew didn't ISO test an Amsoil in his group of test filters, so no data to confirm. Also if an oil filter is expected to load up and choke down pretty good with the recommended use, it makes sense to set the bypass valve high enough to handle that use condition so the filter won't bypass too early during its use period. Per Andrews' ISO testing, it was seen that the Fram XG did quite well throughout the loading test, so I can see why its bypass valve isn't set nearly as high.

Setting a filter bypass valve too high gives less headroom between the filter's bypass valve setting and the oil pump's pressure relief setting when the filter gets clogged enough to open the filter bypass. Plus, if a highly clogged filter's bypass hole is too small to handle all the pump flow through the bypass and creates even more delta-p, then that could also make the oil pump hit pressure relief easier.

I'm considering the filter being more restrictive than the engine in my conjured up scenario there, as that's the only way I can see it impacting pressure enough to trigger a code.
Yeah, the bottom line is if the oil pressure decreases at the sensor location after the oil filter (viscosity is constant), then the oil flow volume had to decrease. The only way the oil volume could decrease at a constant engine RPM and viscosity is a decrease of oil flow out of the pump, for whatever reason.
 

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Some of that high bypass setting on the Amsoil filter might be due to it being somewhat flow restrictive to start with - Andrew didn't ISO test an Amsoil in his group of test filters, so no data to confirm. Also if an oil filter is expected to load up and choke down pretty good with the recommended use, it makes sense to set the bypass valve high enough to handle that use condition so the filter won't bypass too early during its use period. Per Andrews' ISO testing, it was seen that the Fram XG did quite well throughout the loading test, so I can see why its bypass valve isn't set nearly as high.
I just want to point this out, because it is important:

5.7L HEMI filter, XG10060:
Screen Shot 2022-06-16 at 10.24.32 PM.png


5.3L LSx filter, XG10575:
Screen Shot 2022-06-16 at 10.25.21 PM.png


The old AMSOIL application chart (before the TSB) called for the EA15K50 for both applications. NOW, they call for the EAO17 for the LSx and don't list an EA filter for the RAM 1500 with the 5.7L. The EAO17 still has the higher bypass pressure that GM appears to call for.

So, as I noted, it does appear that AMSOIL was trying to reduce part #'s by spec'ing the same filter for both applications. So, not only does this TSB correspond with FCA downsizing the filter for the HEMI, but also with what looks to be consolidation/streamlining of AMSOIL part #'s where they appear to have spec'd the small GM filter for the HEMI because the dimensions were similar, despite the markedly different bypass pressure. The older filter, which was the Ford FL-820S equivalent, is the EAO11 and continues to be a valid part # for applications that call for it (it was never part of the TSB). It has the lower bypass pressure.
Setting a filter bypass valve too high gives less headroom between the filter's bypass valve setting and the oil pump's pressure relief setting when the filter gets clogged enough to open the filter bypass. Plus, if a highly clogged filter's bypass hole is too small to handle all the pump flow through the bypass and creates even more delta-p, then that could also make the oil pump hit pressure relief easier.
Yes, let's say the engine expects 50psi (pump relief is 65) at 2,500RPM with the oil temp at 90C. Well, the filter is already plugged up and most of the oil is going through the bypass because we are on the ~25psi differential. The pump is already on the relief and the filter/bypass can't flow enough volume, so it just going out the relief. Let's say this caps us, in this scenario, at 35-40psi (just hypotheticals) measured after the filter.

Of course another variation of this scenario could be that the relief is playing a bigger role than suspected and measured pressure, even at lower RPM where oil pressure is expected to be lower, really isn't on the pump side of the filter (which you allude to). A 25psi drop on the relief is considerable, so if the filter and bypass can't flow enough to keep the pump off the relief, with a 25psi differential, that'd do some very weird things to an ECM that knows to expect a certain range of oil pressure for a given oil temperature and all of a sudden something's whack.
Yeah, the bottom line is if the oil pressure decreases at the sensor location after the oil filter (viscosity is constant), then the oil flow volume had to decrease. The only way the oil volume could decrease at a constant engine RPM and viscosity is a decrease of oil flow out of the pump, for whatever reason.
Yes, I'm just thinking that the relief is playing a bigger role due to plugged media, made more significant by the huge differential pressure on this particular filter.

I would like to see the difference in media surface area between the EA15K50 and the EAO17.
 

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I just want to point this out, because it is important:

5.7L HEMI filter, XG10060:
View attachment 104125

5.3L LSx filter, XG10575:
View attachment 104126

The old AMSOIL application chart (before the TSB) called for the EA15K50 for both applications. NOW, they call for the EAO17 for the LSx and don't list an EA filter for the RAM 1500 with the 5.7L. The EAO17 still has the higher bypass pressure that GM appears to call for.

So, as I noted, it does appear that AMSOIL was trying to reduce part #'s by spec'ing the same filter for both applications. So, not only does this TSB correspond with FCA downsizing the filter for the HEMI, but also with what looks to be consolidation/streamlining of AMSOIL part #'s where they appear to have spec'd the small GM filter for the HEMI because the dimensions were similar, despite the markedly different bypass pressure. The older filter, which was the Ford FL-820S equivalent, is the EAO11 and continues to be a valid part # for applications that call for it (it was never part of the TSB). It has the lower bypass pressure.
Yes, looks like Amsoil shot themselves in the foot by consolidation. This engine sounds sensitive to any oil filters that might clog up quickly along with having a high set bypass valve. On a side note - the XG10575 is what Fram specs to cross-over to the FL500S used on the 2015+ Coyote, which has a higher bypass setting than the FL820S. Not sure what changed on the 2015+ Coyote to require a new oil filter ... maybe a higher flow oil pump.

Yes, let's say the engine expects 50psi (pump relief is 65) at 2,500RPM with the oil temp at 90C. Well, the filter is already plugged up and most of the oil is going through the bypass because we are on the ~25psi differential. The pump is already on the relief and the filter/bypass can't flow enough volume, so it just going out the relief. Let's say this caps us, in this scenario, at 35-40psi (just hypotheticals) measured after the filter.

Of course another variation of this scenario could be that the relief is playing a bigger role than suspected and measured pressure, even at lower RPM where oil pressure is expected to be lower, really isn't on the pump side of the filter (which you allude to). A 25psi drop on the relief is considerable, so if the filter and bypass can't flow enough to keep the pump off the relief, with a 25psi differential, that'd do some very weird things to an ECM that knows to expect a certain range of oil pressure for a given oil temperature and all of a sudden something's whack.

Yes, I'm just thinking that the relief is playing a bigger role due to plugged media, made more significant by the huge differential pressure on this particular filter.
I'm curious if the oil pressure and temperature monorting system is setting the trouble-code at higher RPM, and not at an idle? With a clogged filter it obviously would be much easier to get the pump to hit pressure relief, and therefore result in less oil pressure after the oil filter than if the pump wasn't in relief. Like mentioned before, the only time there will be a drop in pressure at the sensor is if there is a drop in flow volume (viscosity constant of course) at the sensor.

I would like to see the difference in media surface area between the EA15K50 and the EAO17.
+1 ... if the media area is less, then that increases the delta-p and also reduces the holding capacity. Two things going in the wrong direction, and at some point it could cause problems like apparently seen in these Hemi engines.
 

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Yes, looks like Amsoil shot themselves in the foot by consolidation. This engine sounds sensitive to any oil filters that might clog up quickly along with having a high set bypass valve. On a side note - the XG10575 is what Fram specs to cross-over to the FL500S used on the 2015+ Coyote, which has a higher bypass setting than the FL820S. Not sure what changed on the 2015+ Coyote to require a new oil filter ... maybe a higher flow oil pump.


I'm curious if the oil pressure and temperature monorting system is setting the trouble-code at higher RPM, and not at an idle? With a clogged filter it obviously would be much easier to get the pump to hit pressure relief, and therefore result in less oil pressure after the oil filter than if the pump wasn't in relief. Like mentioned before, the only time there will be a drop in pressure at the sensor is if there is a drop in flow volume (viscosity constant of course) at the sensor.


+1 ... if the media area is less, then that increases the delta-p and also reduces the holding capacity. Two things going in the wrong direction, and at some point it could cause problems like apparently seen in these Hemi engines.
We are on the same page :)

If I had an EA150K50 here to cut open, I would. I will however order a few of the 6.4L filters (since I'm almost out of OG Ultras) but we've had a few of those cut open before, including one I posted back when I had the Expedition, lol.

I really wish the Fleetguard had a silicone ADBV, because that's an even easier to get filter.
 
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I wonder if a bigger filter with more filtering media is the way to go. That's what I did at 510 miles on the Power Wagon. The Amsoil bypass setup comes with a full flow filter that is HUGE. It would take a lot of garbage to plug the media enough to reduce flow or open the bypass.

 

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I wonder if a bigger filter with more filtering media is the way to go. That's what I did at 510 miles on the Power Wagon. The Amsoil bypass setup comes with a full flow filter that is HUGE. It would take a lot of garbage to plug the media enough to reduce flow or open the bypass.

Well, the XG2/SRT filter is a bigger filter. But it may not fit all applications is my understanding. It fits on my DT though, so that's what's on there.
 
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