Help Me Calculate PPM of Additives in Oil.....

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I have an engine with a flat tappet cam that likes high zinc and phosphorus but it also happens to be high mileage. There are few oils out there that offer high zinc/phosphorus AND all the other high mileage oil benefits, especially without paying alot of $$$. Additives can be used to boost certain things but without some thought on it, it can sometimes do more harm than good. Your opinions on oil brands and the use of additives aside, I'm curious on how the math works out. Lets say I have 4.25qts of Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40. According to the following link it has 1100ppm of zinc and 1000ppm of phosphorus. Mobil 1 - Zn/Ph Content Already its a pretty good oil. But lets say for arguments sake my particular engine needs a bit more zinc and phosphorus. Lets say I want to add an off-the-shelf ZDDP package. Lets use Rislone's Concentrated Oil Supplement w/Zinc as an example. Rislone Concentrated Engine Supplement The bottle is 11oz and the datasheet says it has zinc content of 1.56%. Can someone show me the math of how adding the 11oz bottle of the Rislone Zinc additive to 4.25qts of M1 HM will effect zinc levels in PPM? I would appreciate it! Thanks!
 
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5,179
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1% = 10,000 ppm. 1.56% = 15,600ppm for 11oz 1418ppm per 1 oz 32oz x 4.25 = 136oz 15,600ppm/136oz = 115ppm increase of zinc for every ounce.
 
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8,051
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A percent can also be interpreted as a "Part Per Hundred". A PPM stands for a "Part Per Million". To go from part per Hundred to a part per Million, multiply by 10,000. So the Rislone has Zinc content of 15,600 parts per million. Adding an 11oz bottle of Rislone to 4.25 qts M1 10w40 HM: [(11/32 qt x 15600 ppm Zn) + (4.25 qt x 1100 ppm Zn)] / (11/32 + 4.25) = 2185 ppm Zn in the final mixture. That's racing oil territory. Just add enough to tweak it to ~1600 ppm Zn.
 
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AdmiralYoda

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Wow. Thank you for doing the math and proving my point. Blindly throwing additives in an engine is not always a good idea just because the manufacturer says it is. If I put the entire bottle in my engine I would have a zinc content of 2365ppm. Too much is not always a good thing. In the past I have done this and it does make a noticible difference in how smooth it runs and how much quieter the valves are. But I did it only because the bottle said I could. After learning a bit here I'm apprehensive to have that much zinc in there.
 
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This is a simple dilution. 1.56% = 15,600 ppm (V1)(C1) = (V2)(C2) V1 = volume of additive = 11 oz C1 = ppm of additive = 15,600 ppm V2 = final volume = 136 + 11 = 147 oz C2 = final ppm = what we're solving for C2 = (11 * 15,600)/147 = 1167 ppm The zinc concentration in the oil in your sump will thus increase by 1167 ppm.
 
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5,179
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Midwest
Originally Posted By: HardbodyLoyalist
This is a simple dilution. 1.56% = 15,600 ppm (V1)(C1) = (V2)(C2) V1 = volume of additive = 11 oz C1 = ppm of additive = 15,600 ppm V2 = final volume = 136 + 11 = 147 oz C2 = final ppm = what we're solving for C2 = (11 * 15,600)/147 = 1167 ppm The zinc concentration in the oil in your sump will thus increase by 1167 ppm.
You're right. My brain isn't firing on all cylinders after this week.
 

AdmiralYoda

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Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
I wouldn't add any zinc to an already SL-rated, stout high mileage motor oil...
That seems to be a very common opinion. I can tell you from experience though that to get my Toyota 22RE or Jeep 4.0L to shut up, the Zn/Ph has to be higher than what is commonly put into SL-rated, stout high mileage motor oil. Somewhere between 1500-2000ppm really makes them happy. I'm trying to figure out exactly how much does the trick rather than blindly follow the manufacturers instructions and hope that a whole bottle isn't too much. Seems that with the M1 HM if I add half a bottle I will end up with about 1600-1700ppm of Zinc. Can someone confirm that for me? Just adding half a bottle (5.5oz)?
 

AdmiralYoda

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Originally Posted By: loyd
Why not use ZDDP, the bottle tells you how much to add. No math needed!
True....but its not available locally and I'm too impatient to wait for shipping.
 
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Michigan
Repeating my calculation for 5.5 oz: [(5.5/32 x 15600) + (4.25 x 1100)] / (5.5/32 + 4.25) = 1664 ppm Zn All that being calculated and discussed, I feel the need to point out that when considering the effective concentration of ZDDP, you should do the calculations based on Phosphorous content, not Zinc.
 
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AdmiralYoda

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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Repeating my calculation for 5.5 oz: [(5.5/32 x 15600) + (4.25 x 1100)] / (5.5/32 + 4.25) = 1664 ppm Zn All that being calculated and discussed, I feel the need to point out that when considering the effective concentration of ZDDP, you should do the calculations based on Phosphorous content, not Zinc.
Thank you! Can you elaborate on the statement regarding why the calculations should be based on Phosphorus? But to continue down the rabbit hole. The Rislone datasheet says that it has 1.34% Phosphorus, or 13,400ppm. M1 HM says it has 1000ppm phosphorus. For a full bottle of Rislone: [(11/32 x 13400) + (4.25 x 1000)] / (11/32 + 4.25) = 1928 ppm Ph For a half bottle of Rislone: [(5.5/32 x 13400) + (4.25 x 1000)] / (5.5/32 + 4.25) = 1520 ppm Ph
 
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I have read somewhere here before that Zinc can be present in other oil additives, so when you're working with Zinc numbers, you're not necessarily calculating actual antiwear additive content.
 
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356
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south haven mi
Solid lifter race engines only need about 1200ppm I believe redline has the highest concentration of zinc.You could probably add 1/4 bottle per oil change and be well protected.http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/tech_tips/tech_tips_Whats_in_zincadditive.html
 
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AdmiralYoda

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Originally Posted By: cknight49090
Solid lifter race engines only need about 1200ppm I believe redline has the highest concentration of zinc.You could probably add 1/4 bottle per oil change and be well protected.
Since I'm well educated now.... A 16oz bottle of Redline Break-In Additive has 20,500ppm Zn and 17,000ppm Ph. Redline Break-In Additive For a 1/4 bottle of Redline: [(4/32 x 20500) + (4.25 x 1100)] / (4/32 + 4.25) = 1654 ppm Zn [(4/32 x 17000) + (4.25 x 1000)] / (4/32 + 4.25) = 1458 ppm Ph That would be about perfect in my opinion, and Redline is definetely known to be top notch. Too bad I can't find it locally and its usually $15-20 before shipping. I'm only using the Rislone in the above examples because I can buy it locally and its probably one of the more reputable brands of those available at AAP, AZ and Wally.
 

AdmiralYoda

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But in reality.......this much zinc and phosphorus shouldn't really be needed. Flat tappet cams maybe need more of it....but 2000ppm? No. It seems 1400-1500ppm is a reasonably safe upper limit, anything more than that is unnecessary and may cause more harm than good in the long run. More seems to be fine in race engines or for break in as the OCI are not nearly as long as ours. A good explanation here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3155862 I will repeat that my 22RE and Jeep 4.0L do run quieter and smoother with lots of these additives, but is it the Zn/Ph or something else in the additive? Who knows....maybe they put a big dose of Moly in there and don't tell anyone. I think if I'm willing to spend the $$$ on additives which may contain other mystery ingredients, I might as well just spend the money on RedLine's 5W-40 or 10W-40 and be done with it. Its got everything I think I need.
 
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