Help! 454 OMG. Talk about a catastrophic event. This one is going blow your minds. i removed oil filter sandwich adapter...

[Alnov91]

Facts:
1981 camaro
Swap to 468
Including here- build sheet picture of some parts

History: (with some facts not realized until this week)
-Shop oil pressure with loop on filter adapter pegged at 80psi with priming tool.
-not sure why but temporary hose loop on adapter removed and holes plugged during installation of motor to car. Probably to gain clearance.
- loop remained off while engine controls and peripherals were installed.
-MISTAKE ONE: during ignition timing setup engine was started with blocked off adapter.
Oil pressure zero for 10 seconds at 1100rpm then rose to 45psi then erratic at 25 35 08 25
-MISTAKE TWO: after several 25 minute runs to adjust idle and timing with psi at average of 25 and changing oil and filters everything seemed within specs everyone ABSOLUTELY FORGOT ABOUT BLOCKED ADAPTER COOLER PORTS.
- (speculation)at this time oil was either breaching past small oring or possibly a bypass valve on pump according to some earlier posts.
-engine temps at idle: 190*F achieved at 5 min, 210 at 20min, 240 at 35min. Ignition turned off at 240.
-it was here in the cooling system efficiency phase that the oil cooler was connected. It was not installed earlier due to lines being unavailable at moment. And yes when it came to remember installing it, everyone had a sickening knot in their stomach and noone had the humor to even talk about the obvious elephant in the room.
-
Added oil cooler lines to sandwich adapter( inlet and outlet previously plugged).
During leak test in driveway, Oil cooler line ruptured, hose clamp on barbed fitting was loose, lost all oil, engine ran 30 seconds until I turned off ignition. Temps reached 240.

Repaired line, new oil 5w30, surprise 45 psi oil pressure reading,,,louder than normal noise from top end, turned off ignition.

My thinking was that the cooler was at fault, I wanted to go back a step to last run state of "normal" so I Removed adapter to go back to conditions prior to cooler lines, NOTICED ORING MISSING, Reinstalled adapter blocked off at ports and with new oring and with new oil filter of same brand. Turned on motor ZERO OIL PRESSURE.


Removed distributor, tried to prime pump with drill, very difficult to spin, and when finger let off drill switch, pump counter spun a half turn of the drill. Like a twisted rubber band. Ran primer in reverse thinking i could dislodge a jam in the pick up screen. Made gurgling sounds. No affect clockwise rotations were labored and few until bound up and forced a counter spin.

Note. Oil filter had oil in them but probably only on block side NOT pump side. The LAST filter after new oring was completely empty.

 

[Alnov91]

Not that this matters… Are you 100% sure there was an o ring? FWIT the oil filter/bypass adapter that bolts to the block (factory) is a machined surface and doesn’t have an o ring.

100% adapter uses two orings,
Only one present when removed.
Not 100% sure small oring originally installed

 

[DuckRyder]

I think i would put a standard oil filter adapter on it (ie stock) eliminating the sandwich plate and try manually priming again, if it continues to have zero oil pressure the pan is going to have to come out at a minimum. I think it would likely be much quicker and easier to pull the engine, but as you say thats not an option you've got to get to the pump if it won't make pressure with a standard adapter.

I suppose it is possible the o-ring was sucked into the pump when you reversed the primer.

I should say it has been about 25-30 years since I was under an F-Body and even when I messed with Chevies I wasn't much of a BBC guy, so if there are intricacies of this particular motor I'm probably missing it.

 

[funflyer]

Reading through this thread brings up one question. Why do some believe that a missing o-ring from the filter adapter could have made it's way back to the oil pump? If anything, that o-ring was pushed into the oil gallery. From there it may be blocking the pressure switch, or worse, blocking oil flow to the bearings. Just my humble opinion, but this issue isn't going to magically work itself out. A tear-down is in order.

 

[Alnov91]

Agreed, my plan so far is to remove sensor and adapter and blast air at 150psi into sensor sort and pray blockage pushes out at filtered oil port on block. Next if that dooesnt work, replace sensor, remove timing cover and blast air through a oil galley port. What could go wrong?

 

[Alnov91]

I m searching for out of the box... bring the apollo 13 crew home engineering solutions. Lol

 

[DuckRyder]

…Why do some believe that a missing o-ring from the filter adapter could have made it's way back to the oil pump? …

OP says he reversed the pump with a drill/priming tool… that’s the only way I see. And I’d put it in the “highly unlikely” category. That I ring is supposed to be retained in a grove from what I can tell.

That filter adapter is supposed to have the bypass valve in it, but I’m not sure the sandwich adapter has it.

I suppose if OP has help one could remove the sandwich plate and run the primer SLOWLY while someone watches in which case there should be oil at the pump discharge in the oil filter pad, no oil go into bottom end, oil go into block passages looking for leak… does this thing have press in gallery plugs in the oil system that could create an internal leak?

 

[Alnov91]

UPDATE:

first i want to thank everyone for their help.
Second im leaning towards using air pressure to clear the blockages, BUT NOT 150psi as I stated earlier, that may cause more problems like blow out an oil plug that was not threaded. Not sure anymore if all were threaded. I know im safe at 80 psi. Still wondering if anyone is knowledgable enough to locate blockage based on our speculation of oring pushed into block. A mind blower for sure.

 

[Alnov91]

OP says he reversed the pump with a drill/priming tool… that’s the only way I see. And I’d put it in the “highly unlikely” category. That I ring is supposed to be retained in a grove from what I can tell.

That filter adapter is supposed to have the bypass valve in it, but I’m not sure the sandwich adapter has it.

I suppose if OP has help one could remove the sandwich plate and run the primer SLOWLY while someone watches in which case there should be oil at the pump discharge in the oil filter pad, no oil go into bottom end, oil go into block passages looking for leak… does this thing have press in gallery plugs in the oil system that could create an internal leak?

Do you know if the plug shown here in red arrow is threaded or not? Im wondering if the plug was blown up into the galley blocking it. Possible if pressed in but not likely if threaded.

 

[TurboTravis]

Let's back WAY up...why do you think you need an oil cooler in the first place? I assume you are not monitoring oil temp (none of your posts indicate you are). Start with that, remove the oil cooler/associated parts, install an oil temp gauge and go from there. You say that you are running 5W30 oil..

If this were my engine, I would ditch all of the oil cooler stuff, service the engine with whatever brand 20W50 you like and be done with it, with zero concerns about oil temp. Honestly unless you are road racing (or doing some kind of other extended operation at WOT) this engine you have nothing to worry about.

 

[TurboTravis]

I m searching for out of the box... bring the apollo 13 crew home engineering solutions. Lol

Use an external pressurized oil source-feed the oil pressure gauge port with the oil...pushrods should oil, etc...anywhere that gets pressurized oil should receive oil and continue to do so until source is removed.

You could also fart around with pulling a vacuum on various places..

 

[DuckRyder]

Do you know if the plug shown here in red arrow is threaded or not? Im wondering if the plug was blown up into the galley blocking it. Possible if pressed in but not likely if threaded.

I do not know, sorry. Can you fish a piece of wire down from the pressure sender port, perhaps even see it?

Have you tried it without the sandwich adapter?

 

[Alnov91]

Great ideas. At this point I have done nothing out of fear of making it worse. Actually im having trouble making sense of what actually happened to cause the specific symptoms.
Gen iv 454
1. Bench tested at 80psi by priming oil pump in motor with looped inlet to outlet
2.(mistake) after install to car, Ran motor with blocked off oil sandwich adapter inlet and outlet ports. Momentary zero pressure, then fluctuation, steadied at 25psi
3. Installed cooler to sandwich, 45 psi for 30 sec and then zero psi.
4. Used priming tool to check pump, rotates clockwise with difficulty and reverse spins slightly when drill stops. When run counter clock makes gurgling sounds in pan and runs free.
5. small oring of sandwich adapter noticed as missing between step 2-3 put in new oring. Some think oring is in block.
Im wondering if plug shown in picture with ret arrow is the blockage. Im trying to learn if that plug is pressed or threaded

 

[Alnov91]

Use an external pressurized oil source-feed the oil pressure gauge port with the oil...pushrods should oil, etc...anywhere that gets pressurized oil should receive oil and continue to do so until source is removed.

You could also fart around with pulling a vacuum on various places..

 

[DGXR]

No chemical will break down the o-ring.

Alternately, any chemical that will break down the o-ring will also break down other necessary o-rings and oil seals.

 

[wemay]

Alternately, any chemical that will break down the o-ring will also break down other necessary o-rings and oil seals.

Exactly.

 

[meep]

Is there a problem? Was the oil pump providing resistance because of a rubber obstacle, which it can most likely sheer and shred under power, or because it built up oil pressure?

isn’t the filter AFTER the pump in the circuit? If it’s after, were looking in the wrong place….

 

[Alnov91]

Is there a problem? Was the oil pump providing resistance because of a rubber obstacle, which it can most likely sheer and shred under power, or because it built up oil pressure?

isn’t the filter AFTER the pump in the circuit? If it’s after, were looking in the wrong place….

Right! Latest thinking is that it may be possible that the plug in this picture migrates under pressure to form a blockage downstream. This hinges on whether or not its a press in plug or a threaded one. Seeking answers on this issue.

 

[DuckRyder]

Great ideas. At this point I have done nothing out of fear of making it worse. Actually im having trouble making sense of what actually happened to cause the specific symptoms.
Gen iv 454
1. Bench tested at 80psi by priming oil pump in motor with looped inlet to outlet

So far so good.

2.(mistake) after install to car, Ran motor with blocked off oil sandwich adapter inlet and outlet ports. Momentary zero pressure, then fluctuation, steadied at 25psi

The fact that it had any oil pressure suggest it had some sort of bypass. Do you know the brand/model of sandwich adapter?

3. Installed cooler to sandwich, 45 psi for 30 sec and then zero psi.

Zero when the hose failed or before?

4. Used priming tool to check pump, rotates clockwise with difficulty and reverse spins slightly when drill stops. When run counter clock makes gurgling sounds in pan and runs free.

Gurgling when run backwards is normal IME. I'm assuming that since you primed it earlier when you say it spins with difficulty you mean significantly more difficulty than normal. Spinning and oil pump has a good deal of resistance, I've burned up drills doing it.

5. small oring of sandwich adapter noticed as missing between step 2-3 put in new oring. Some think oring is in block.
Im wondering if plug shown in picture with ret arrow is the blockage. Im trying to learn if that plug is pressed or threaded

The way that O-ring is installed in a slot seems it would be a nearly impossible for it to move if everything was correctly installed.

Like wise the plug, unless you've somehow determined this is a "thing" with a Mark IV BBC I would put that WAY down on the list assuming a properly sized plug is installed there. The way the picture is drawn suggest a press fit plug.

If the oil pump is not spinning properly then pulling the pan seems to be a requirement. If it is spinning then the course of actual seems to be to remove the sandwich adapter and see if there is oil to the filter pad, even if you have to just put a pan under it and run the primer for 15 seconds. If there is oil to the pad then put a factory filter adapter on it with the proper filter and see if you can get oil pressure with the primer. If there isn't oil to the pad the pan has to come off... can you even get the pan off of it in the car?

You say the builder is unknown, has this engine ever been known to run with good oil pressure? Why was it sold and what is the engines history?

I know you don't want to hear it, but if a fairly simple solution like the filter adapter doesn't present itself, I think the motor is going to have to come apart.

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[zzyzzx]

I know it sucks, but quit messing around, pull the motor and get inside it.

And post pics of any carnage...