Heavy Duty Motor Oil in Passenger Car

Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
125
Location
Milano (Italy)
Hi everyone, this is a harmless question and I don't want to be argumetative. I am curious and want to learn.

Some time ago I remember that a guy gave me a speech about motor oils. According to him Heavy Duty Engine Oil were also good for Passenger Car and also had better performance.

He explained to me that the most important features are the API and not so much the ACEA.

At the time we were talking about cars without DPF, he told me especially for diesel engines it is important to look for oils with CH-4 / CI-4 specifications or higher and a E5 / E7 oilcan be used in virtually any car

Is it's true? even now?

What is the difference between Passenger Car Motor Oil and Heavy Duty Engine Oil?
 
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
14,952
Location
ROCHESTER, NY
Yes, HDEOs can be used in many gas engines. HDEOs have higher levels of additives and additives for soot control. Other than that, I'm afraid that I just don't know much more that that.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
2,983
Location
Athens, GA
Plenty of 'HD' oils also carry dual rating, although a while back when I was looking, Rotella was stuck at an SM rating while the PCMO market had moved on to SN and SN+.
 
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
3,714
Location
Kentucky
Plenty of 'HD' oils also carry dual rating, although a while back when I was looking, Rotella was stuck at an SM rating while the PCMO market had moved on to SN and SN+.
Dual rated oils will likely be a thing of the past, except for multi-fleet specific grades/oils. Even though limits on phosphorus have been in place since SJ, until now dual rated oils were exempted from the phosphorus limit. This changed with the introduction of SP.

Shell has already abandoned the dual rating on most of their Rotella lineup, and I suspect more brands will be doing the same.

To answer the OP question: diesel oils typically have more additives, both anti-wear and detergents, they also tend to be thicker than a PCMO in the same viscosity grade. One can argue endlessly as to whether the extra additives actually contribute to decreased wear over the life of the engine oil.

The big caveat is that one of the primary anti-wear additives, phosphorus, which is [almost always] present in greater quantity in diesel oil, is known to poison catalytic converters which reduces their efficiency. There's also direct injection to consider, extra additives are less desirable in these applications since they can contribute to deposits on intake valves. LSPI can also be an issue with higher levels of certain additives.

I've used HDEO in several passenger cars over the years and have accumulated many UOAs that were pretty much flawless. My own qualifier for HDEO use in gas engines is port-injected and doesn't consume very much oil.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
1,314
I use 15w40 Castrol GTX diesel oil in my 2.0 jetta that does not have direct injection or turbos, it starts great in the cold, and I will be putting it into the 5 cylinder jetta today most likely. Zinc and phosphorous are great anti wear additives, and the GTX castrol always has alot of calcium as a detergent. These oils are shear stable, and with a smaller radiator on the Jetta's holding just a gallon and a cup, such a shear stable oil is necessary.
These oils also do not varnish, as they have less viscosity modifiers. I hope this helped.
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
1,314
I forgot to mention, 15w when cold does not interfere with the 2.5 variable valve timing, the 4 cylinder engines do not have valve timing, and Volkswagen recommends using 15w40 or 20w50 when it isn't so cold outside.

Here are some arguments that people will start about using anything other than 5w, 10w, and 0w:
"The bearing clearance is not suited for 15w and can damage them" Proving this to be false: Yes, maybe a straight grade during the cold months of the year, and when I mean cold I mean COLD (10 degrees Fahrenheit), at this point 30 weight is as thick as molasses, but a 15w40 will do just fine.
Bearing clearances are set for operating temperatures, and not only cold start weights, maybe some Asian manufacturers might be different, as we know they use lighter viscosity oils but these passenger cars do not produce enough heat, they are full aluminum engines.

European cars are mostly cast iron, built tough , and have decent clearances for every viscosity oil except the newer very light engine oils some cars are introducing.

Cast iron engines were designed to be used with thicker oils in mind, most of the oil recommendations are not well suited, they are mostly there for fuel efficiency ratings.

Do not use a straight grade or a 15w oil in harsh winters with cars equipped with turbochargers, it can damage turbos.
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
23,655
Location
Upper Midwest
Bearing clearances are essentially irrelevant with cold oil. There is no danger in undercutting the required MOFT regardless of the winter rating.
 

bismillah

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
125
Location
Milano (Italy)
Plenty of 'HD' oils also carry dual rating, although a while back when I was looking, Rotella was stuck at an SM rating while the PCMO market had moved on to SN and SN+.
If you consider diesel engine's specifications, in PCMO we are with CF while HDMO we are far beyond with CJ-4 and CK-4
 

bismillah

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
125
Location
Milano (Italy)
I was talking about more recent cars, in example, for a car without DPF I mean a good quality synthetic HDEO oil such as Mobil 1 Delvac 5w40

 
Last edited:

Sam_Julier

$50 Site Donor 2023
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
1,204
Location
Connecticut
I have run dual spec oils in the Volvo 240s for years. API CJ-4/SM, CK-4/SN, ACEA E9 etc. Excellent cleanliness, low oil consumption, oil pressure stability at high oil temperatures, easy starting at low ambient temperatures (0W and 5W grades). Picture attached shows Chevron Delo 10W30 CJ-4/SM at a 5,000 mile oil change. 196,000 miles on engine.
 

Attachments

  • B8534A55-B76D-4B2F-B308-11256A1F437E.jpeg
    B8534A55-B76D-4B2F-B308-11256A1F437E.jpeg
    121.1 KB · Views: 484

bismillah

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
125
Location
Milano (Italy)
I have run dual spec oils in the Volvo 240s for years. API CJ-4/SM, CK-4/SN, ACEA E9 etc. Excellent cleanliness, low oil consumption, oil pressure stability at high oil temperatures, easy starting at low ambient temperatures (0W and 5W grades). Picture attached shows Chevron Delo 10W30 CJ-4/SM at a 5,000 mile oil change. 196,000 miles on engine.
Why did you use E9 oil on such an old engine? Why go to use a Mid SAPs when you can enjoy all the protection of a Full SAPs? Your Volvo probably doesn't even have a catalytic converter...

This thing gives me a doubt that I would like to clear up. Is using a Low/Mid SAPs oil in an engine that does not require it an advantage? I think no...
 

Sam_Julier

$50 Site Donor 2023
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
1,204
Location
Connecticut
Why did you use E9 oil on such an old engine? Why go to use a Mid SAPs when you can enjoy all the protection of a Full SAPs? Your Volvo probably doesn't even have a catalytic converter...

This thing gives me a doubt that I would like to clear up. Is using a Low/Mid SAPs oil in an engine that does not require it an advantage? I think no...
Good question. I should have been more clear. The dual spec oils I have been using are rated for CK-4/SN and ACEA E9.
 

Attachments

  • 53AFBD11-C451-4163-A38E-E9516776990A.jpeg
    53AFBD11-C451-4163-A38E-E9516776990A.jpeg
    147.9 KB · Views: 52
  • A7F08585-A484-43C7-862C-6A5982E0ABF6.jpeg
    A7F08585-A484-43C7-862C-6A5982E0ABF6.jpeg
    203.7 KB · Views: 51

bismillah

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
125
Location
Milano (Italy)
Good question. I should have been more clear. The dual spec oils I have been using are rated for CK-4/SN and ACEA E9.
Well, well, well... they are both excellent oils (which unfortunately we dream of here in Italy) and from the specifications we note that:

the first, Mobil 1 TDT 5W40 API CK-4 SN ACEA E7 E9 is an excellent oil for diesel engines equipped with advanced anti-pollution systems such as EGR and DPF but it is particular because it has both the E7 and E9 specifications: the E7 specification is the highest among full SAPs (also strengthened by the fact that the oil is recommended where ACEA A5 is recommended which is the evolution of ACEA A1) oils were recommended on EURO3 engines but also E9 which means Mid SAPs oil recommended from EURO4 due to the DPF.

the second Chevron Delo 400 XSP 5W40 API CK-4 SN ACEA E9 is an excellent oil for diesel engines equipped with advanced anti-pollution systems such as EGR and DPF but does not have the E7 specification, so it is a pure Mid SAPs.

The question is always the same, we are talking about the sex of angels, I can understand it but, in which car do you use this oil? They are oils designed for recent engines, in my opinion on your Volvo you could enjoy all the protection of a pure E4 / E7 Full SAPs since you have no catalyst, EGR or DPF. Paradise.

This is my knowledge but I also have to learn and I want to compare myself. Is using a Low / Mid SAP oil in an engine that does not require it an advantage?
 

Sam_Julier

$50 Site Donor 2023
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
1,204
Location
Connecticut
Well, well, well... they are both excellent oils (which unfortunately we dream of here in Italy) and from the specifications we note that:

the first, Mobil 1 TDT 5W40 API CK-4 SN ACEA E7 E9 is an excellent oil for diesel engines equipped with advanced anti-pollution systems such as EGR and DPF but it is particular because it has both the E7 and E9 specifications: the E7 specification is the highest among full SAPs (also strengthened by the fact that the oil is recommended where ACEA A5 is recommended which is the evolution of ACEA A1) oils were recommended on EURO3 engines but also E9 which means Mid SAPs oil recommended from EURO4 due to the DPF.

the second Chevron Delo 400 XSP 5W40 API CK-4 SN ACEA E9 is an excellent oil for diesel engines equipped with advanced anti-pollution systems such as EGR and DPF but does not have the E7 specification, so it is a pure Mid SAPs.

The question is always the same, we are talking about the sex of angels, I can understand it but, in which car do you use this oil? They are oils designed for recent engines, in my opinion on your Volvo you could enjoy all the protection of a pure E4 / E7 Full SAPs since you have no catalyst, EGR or DPF. Paradise.

This is my knowledge but I also have to learn and I want to compare myself. Is using a Low / Mid SAP oil in an engine that does not require it an advantage?
I use in these oils in our 1993 Volvo 240s with the B230F NA 4 cylinder engine. 5,000 mile OCI.

I’m not really concerned about mid vs full SAPS. There are many people running these oils in the North American Volvo 240 community without issue.
 

bismillah

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
125
Location
Milano (Italy)
I use in these oils in our 1993 Volvo 240s with the B230F NA 4 cylinder engine. 5,000 mile OCI.

I’m not really concerned about mid vs full SAPS. There are many people running these oils in the North American Volvo 240 community without issue.
I don't think you will have any problems! We are talking about top lubrication oils. I was simply saying that thay are dedicated to much more advanced and pollution-conscious engines 🌲
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2019
Messages
225
Location
Close to arctic circle
I`m using and have used HDEO oil in my last 3 gasoline cars. I get oil from my workplace at very low price, so low in fact its not possible to find cheaper engine oil elsewhere. Its a VDS 4.5 approved 10W-30 oil for Volvo commercial vehicles. Seems like my cars have loved that oil.
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2021
Messages
6
Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil (HDDEO ) has high cleaning and anti-oxidation capabilities but has a lower film breakdown strength ( comparing to the passenger car oil ). Duty Diesel Engine is working on low RPM comparable to passenger car engine and has a lower unit specific load on engine mass and operating temperature. So HDDEO also designed to last longer in dirty environment with low unit specific load so has low oil film breakdown strength. Passenger car engines ( especially gas engines ) needs oil with higher oil film breakdown strength. And it's oil contradicting parameters : oil film breakdown strength from on side and cleaning and anti-oxidation capabilities from another side : increasing one you are decreasing another
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
23,655
Location
Upper Midwest
Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil (HDDEO ) has high cleaning and anti-oxidation capabilities but has a lower film breakdown strength ( comparing to the passenger car oil ). Duty Diesel Engine is working on low RPM comparable to passenger car engine and has a lower unit specific load on engine mass and operating temperature. So HDDEO also designed to last longer in dirty environment with low unit specific load so has low oil film breakdown strength. Passenger car engines ( especially gas engines ) needs oil with higher oil film breakdown strength. And it's oil contradicting parameters : oil film breakdown strength from on side and cleaning and anti-oxidation capabilities from another side : increasing one you are decreasing another
In your short tenure here on Bitog you keep making references to these values but despite being asked where you get them, you never tell us. So what source are you using to obtain these mysterious values that are so important?
 
Top