Have to Share some Old school Humor

goofy8 · Jun 20, 2004

Sorry I wouldn't....5w20 Acura going to 10w30 Amsoil.

I just don't trust it

Not going to run that thin stuff for 1-2% fuel savings. He!! does anyone not put their foot in to it passing someone, MPG is out the door and so is your engine protection.

quote:

Originally posted by sbc350gearhead:
I would not hesitate to use a 20 weight, in an application that calls for it.

sbc350gearhead · Jun 20, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by goofy8:
Sorry I wouldn't....5w20 Acura going to 10w30 Amsoil.

I just don't trust it

Not going to run that thin stuff for 1-2% fuel savings. He!! does anyone not put their foot in to it passing someone, MPG is out the door and so is your engine protection.

quote:

Originally posted by sbc350gearhead:
I would not hesitate to use a 20 weight, in an application that calls for it.

Click to expand...

And that is your choice.

But understand, that there is no evidence that a 30 weight will protect better than a 20 weight in your application. We all must remember the difference between fact and conjecture. If it helps you sleep by using a heavier oil, then by all means, do so.

427Z06 · Jun 20, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by crossbow:
Actually I raced on 0w-20 for about 4 months (almost every weekend, usually bouncing off the rev-limiter like a madman), as well as in the summer maryland heat and humidity (90-100F, 70-100% humidity).

More Ford designed and built engines of the modular concept. Keep looking for the Pb from the bearings and you'll never find it no matter how hard you race it.

427Z06 · Jun 20, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Whimsey:

427Z06, I thought you'd appreciate this. I picked my sister from Austin who flew into NJ for our annual B'day celebrations. Now she is "slightly" liberal and a graduate of UT. So I picked her up at the airport in NJ with my pickup truck and had Rush Limbaugh on the radio

. It's amazing what a good sense of humor she has

.

Whimsey

You mean to tell me she didn't refuse to get into the Truck unless you turned off Rush Limbaugh?

Either she had good solid upbringing, or she hasn't spent enough time here to be brainwashed by all the liberal commie types.

427Z06 · Jun 20, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by goofy8:
Sorry I wouldn't....5w20 Acura going to 10w30 Amsoil.

I just don't trust it

Not going to run that thin stuff for 1-2% fuel savings. He!! does anyone not put their foot in to it passing someone, MPG is out the door and so is your engine protection.

goofy8, my thinking is along the same lines. I tried the M1 0w20 in my '02 Honda V6, but with my depleted uranium right foot, I don't believe I got the results everyone, including me, expected.
I have some UOAs coming up with some thicker M1s and we'll see how it goes.

Now here's a question for everyone. If your using Motorcraft 5w20 in Toronto in July, driving in a sensible manner, what would you use if you moved to Austin and it's July, and your now going to drive it real hard. In other words, what's a step up from the MC 5w20 provided protection when you going to subject your engine oil to higher temperatures and tougher driving conditions?

You can look up the local climates here:

http://www.w3.weather.com/outlook/travel/climatology/monthly/CAXX0504

http://www.w3.weather.com/weather/climatology/monthly/78727

crossbow · Jun 20, 2004

Keep looking for the Pb from the bearings and you'll never find it no matter how hard you race it.

Yes...but as mentioned in some other threads, you can get an idea from the Alu wear. As the bearing contain a good deal of Alu. Alu wear on the racing UOA was around 3-4 for 5000 miles.

C4Dave · Jun 20, 2004

I posted results from using 5w20 in an Expedition that included a lot of towing. The oil had a viscosiy 57.8 SUS. The 20 weight range is 48-58. Therefore, this oil was almost a 30 weight. If, on the other hand, this oil started out as a 5w30, everyone would have shrugged their shoulders and said that 5w30 SL oils tend to shear. I don't get it. A 5w30 that shears to a 20 weight is OK because its a 30 weight. But a 20 weight that is almost a 30 weight is way too light.

Schmoe · Jun 20, 2004

Rule of thumb has been that the larger the separation, the more the VI's. So, you'd actually expect a 5W30 to shear but not so much with a 5W20 because of the spread.

crossbow · Jun 20, 2004

however is 3-4ppm for 5000 miles really high or as good as it seems? 3 divided by 0 is a really large number.

Honestly can't really say. How does one seperate the alum bearing wear from the rest of the engine wear? I mean heck pretty much 90% of the entire engine is alum. =/

I'd like to think its good wear taking into account you might be getting some alum from another part of the engine.

Here's some #'s..
(20 wts)
4 for 4000 miles.
4 for nearly 5000 miles.
3 for 4000 miles
5 for 5000
4 for 4000

(30 wts)
5 for 4000
2 for 7500 (high majority of highway,)
4 for 4000

The 2 for 7500 was 0w-30 GC wonder oil. We have an 8000 mile 5w-30 UOA poppin up, so that should throw in some interesting results. Looks about the alum ppm on the 6i and 6s is "about" the same, without enough UOA's to say for sure yet.

427Z06 · Jun 21, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by crossbow:

Honestly can't really say. How does one seperate the alum bearing wear from the rest of the engine wear? I mean heck pretty much 90% of the entire engine is alum. =/

With iron cylinder liners and the Hypereutectic Aluminum Alloy Graphite Skirt Coated pistons, that just leaves the main, rod and cam bearings as the major bearing surfaces made of aluminum. And these aluminum bearings are generally harder than the old TriMetal, and are run with less clearance.

Wouldn't a more realistic test be accomplished in a piston-slapped impaired LS-1?

Let's talk someone into double runs of each, MC 5w20 and GC 0w30, and have them run the snot out of each OCI for 6K miles including some time at the track?

Hey Patman, when you get your C5, ready to take the Pepsi challenge?

Patman · Jun 21, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:

Let's talk someone into double runs of each, MC 5w20 and GC 0w30, and have them run the snot out of each OCI for 6K miles including some time at the track?

Hey Patman, when you get your C5, ready to take the Pepsi challenge?

No thanks, I'm sticking with GC in my C5 when I get it. I don't think it's a good idea to run even a thin 30wt in the LS1, let alone a 20wt.

crossbow · Jun 21, 2004

So does that then mean that we could look at alumn in some of the newer engines and use that # as an equivilant lead #?

mikep · Jun 21, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
And in your application, another Ford modular V8.

Your words (along with those of some others) suggest that 5w-20 UOA from Ford and Mazda engines (or any Ford company product) don't count anymore and are to be discredited? If thats the case then please let me know for sure. I'll save the $$ and not bother having anymore done. I'll get by just fine without the report while using $1.44/qt Havoline 5w-20 or maybe even Citgo Superguard. Heck, maybe I'll take the $$ I saved not getting the report and buy some M1 0w-20?

427Z06 · Jun 21, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by crossbow:
Keep looking for the Pb from the bearings and you'll never find it no matter how hard you race it.

Yes...but as mentioned in some other threads, you can get an idea from the Alu wear. As the bearing contain a good deal of Alu. Alu wear on the racing UOA was around 3-4 for 5000 miles.

Correctomundo...however is 3-4ppm for 5000 miles really high or as good as it seems? 3 divided by 0 is a really large number.

427Z06 · Jun 21, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by C4Dave:
I posted results from using 5w20 in an Expedition that included a lot of towing. The oil had a viscosiy 57.8 SUS. The 20 weight range is 48-58. Therefore, this oil was almost a 30 weight. If, on the other hand, this oil started out as a 5w30, everyone would have shrugged their shoulders and said that 5w30 SL oils tend to shear. I don't get it. A 5w30 that shears to a 20 weight is OK because its a 30 weight. But a 20 weight that is almost a 30 weight is way too light.

Your comparing apples and oranges again. Ford speced 5w20 compared to a mediocre 5w30 dino. And in your application, another Ford modular V8.

[ June 21, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

427Z06 · Jun 21, 2004

crossbow, mikep

To be totally honest with you, I'm not sure what the answer is yet. It may be that this type of design shows lower wear metals in UOAs (even aluminum) and we have to recalibrate our analysis accordingly. Compare universal averages in UOAs from Blackstone labs for different engine designs and I'll think you'll see my point.

Remember, the original intent of UOAs was to determine OCIs through trending and to spot mechanical repairs needed, not to prove which oil was the best.

Ideally, the best way I know of to get an idea of what's going on would be to have several of these engines run out to 150K miles with a dozen OUAs along they way and then do a tear down inspection to see what you really ended up with.

That's what we did with military jet engines.

mikep · Jun 21, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
Remember, the original intent of UOAs was to determine OCIs through trending and to spot mechanical repairs needed, not to prove which oil was the best.

Agreed. All too often many of us, myself included, lose sight of the fact that there simply is no single best motor oil for all applications. Enviromental conditions, driver habits, vehicle specifics, and any number of variables make having it impossible.

quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
Ideally, the best way I know of to get an idea of what's going on would be to have several of these engines run out to 150K miles with a dozen OUAs along they way and then do a tear down inspection to see what you really ended up with.

That's what we did with military jet engines.

Again, we are in agreement. That would be ideal but given the relative newcomer status of the xw-20 motor oils and the absence of that ideal test data, we can try to form an educated best guess based on information we have currently available.
IMO and from what I've seen, the Xw-20 motor oils perform well, sometimes extremely well in applications that call for that weight oil.

427Z06 · Jun 22, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by mikep:
the Xw-20 motor oils perform well, sometimes extremely well in applications that call for that weight oil.

I disagree. They've performed maybe as well, but no better, statistically. Look at crossbow's post above.

mikep · Jun 22, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
I disagree. They've performed maybe as well, but no better, statistically. Look at crossbow's post above.

I'll assume you're talking about the post in which Crossbow listed 5-6 UOA from 20w and 30w oils. So based on those half dozen samples of each, can we say that the 20w oils performed at least as well as the 30w variants? With the exception of the GC 0w-30 highway run oil, all the numbers look about equal. Again, we are comparing a tiny sample which you said makes any judgement suspect at best.

I really don't want to beat this horse anymore than it has been. Don't use 5w-20 if you feel it isn't up to the task. Realistically, using a 30w or 20w isn't going to make a substantial difference.

totttalled · Jun 22, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Patman:
Times have changed though. It's quite obvious from the many 5w20 and 0w20 UOAs on here that it gets the job done very well in these new engines that call for it.

I won't be running it in my C5 when I get it, but I certainly will run it in my mom's Mazda Protege 5 if that is the car she chooses.

My Mazda Protege 5's owner's manual makes no mention of 0/5W 20. It specifies 5W30, or in really hot ambient temps, 10W30. But I run GC.

Have to Share some Old school Humor

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