Has Castrol gone back to REAL syn oils?

[Chris Jefferson]

Have y'all seen the new Castrol website? WAY better than the old one-WAY BETTER! Anyways, read what i got off their site.

Question: How does SYNTEC bond to engine parts?

Answer: SYNTEC's unique chemical esters bond to engine parts. A thin oxide coating exists on the surface of metal components that can develop a positive charge due to electron localization. SYNTEC's unique chemical esters are designed to take advantage of this effect.

The attraction between the positive charge of the engine surface and the esters that have a negative charge creates a layer of ester component that is attracted and held to the surface of the metal. In effect, a layer of lubricant becomes affixed to the engine surface creating a long-lasting protective film.

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[G-MAN]

Castrol's domestically produced Syntec is a blend of Group III and Group V (esters). Given the rather mediocre specs for these oils, there is obviously very little Group V in the base oil blend.

Prior to "the big change" in the late 90s, Syntec was a blend of Group IV (PAO) and Group V (esters).

 

[Leo]

I seriously doubt 'ester' attraction to metals does anything. If it bonds to metal, so what? The oil is constantly moving in the engine anyway. It may prove something in cold startups, but I reckon its all just theory and marketing hype.

And btw, I would assume any 'oxides' would actually be negative aswell? It sounds as if Castrol are referring to the oxide layer that aluminium forms when exposed to air..

All confusing!

 

[G-MAN]

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Originally posted by Leo:
I seriously doubt 'ester' attraction to metals does anything.

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Actually, you're wrong. The original Castrol R, which was a "natural" ester based oil, was renown for its ability to cling to the internals of hot racing engines at temps where conventional oils would simply cook off. All esters share this trait.

For a visual example and analogy of the difference between how esters act on hot metal and how other lubricants behave, take a typical non-stick skillet, heat it up, and pour in some cooking oil. Watch how the oil will segment and not coat the entire surface. This is how conventional oil and PAO acts on hot metal (though certainly not to that degree). Esters, on the other hand, will cover the surface with no segmenting.

 

[Chris Jefferson]

My point was this. Castrol has NEVER said, nor made the statement they made in my first post, about having ANY ester(s) in their oils since they went to a group III oil(s). It makes one wonder however if, BP is now using their ownership of Castrol to demand its North American arm start using real syn base oils in its oil and perhaps syn base oils from BP themselves. i dunno. prolly talking out my butt.....

 

[YZF150]

Their website language is suspect and in sore need of some editing for content. Their specs for 0w-30, for example, state that it not only meets the A3 spec, but GF-3, as well. Not so the latter. --And only the German-made version could meet A3, not the domestic, and yet they don't distinguish.

With Castrol products in North America, the only proof is in the analysis. Their website and help line and tech support are pathetic.

[ June 29, 2003, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: YZF150 ]

 

[Matt89]

quote:

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With Castrol products in North America, the only proof is in the analysis. Their website and help line and tech support are pathetic.

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On their UK site they talk about extended drain intervals with their full synthetic 0W-30. On their US site, they talk all about 3K/3month drains with their "full synthetic" Syntec.

What chameleons...

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:
...The original Castrol R, which was a "natural" ester based oil, was renown for its ability to cling to the internals of hot racing engines at temps where conventional oils would simply cook off. All esters share this trait [emphasis mine].

For a visual example and analogy of the difference between how esters act on hot metal and how other lubricants behave, take a typical non-stick skillet, heat it up, and pour in some cooking oil. Watch how the oil will segment and not coat the entire surface.

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Actually you've got it partially wrong, too. Cooking oils and shortening are both vegetable fats - differing essentially in their saturation levels. Animal fats are very saturated. ALL vegetable and animal fats ARE esters. The only non-ester oils are mineral oils among naturally ocurring lubricants. (This excepts Group-IVs and other non-ester Group Vs since by definition they're not naturally ocurring...) Your example using a non-stick surface may be suspect, too. These surface coatings are intended to repel which is what gives them their desirable non-stick properties. Try your experiment in a well detergent-scrubbed cast iron skillet. You'll be surprised how well cooking oil maintains adhesion to itself and the iron surface while spreading in that scenario. I completely agree with you about the value of esters added to motor oil. They do adhere to the motor's innards and prevent completely dry starts. This is not theory or advertising hype; it's established fact as you pointed out. Even esters added to conventional Group-II motor oil would be worthwhile, though I have no way of knowing which, if any, lube oil blenders* do that. But, that is one reason I substitute one quart of synthetic for my conventional oil fill at change time. I'm unaware of ANY synthetic labled product that does not include some ester content. Since esters don't drain off metal engine parts subject to oil flow, after a couple of changeouts at most, I've achieved total ester coverage on the innards and subsequent routine changeouts with a quart of synthetic will keep 'em that way.

*I suspect that Pennzoil might. I detect a faint fruity quality to its odor which suggests the possibility of an added ester. Esters are also responsible for fruit flavors and odors. Not all esters are pleasant smelling, though. Skunks and stink bugs spray rather nasty esters... One of the final chemical reactions to food as it's digested in the digestive tract of animals is the synthesis of a certain a ester. Guess how we react to it after Rover takes a dump on the carpet or somebody launches a sneaky gas attack nearby...

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
Actually you've got it partially wrong, too. Cooking oils and shortening are both vegetable fats - differing essentially in their saturation levels. Animal fats are very saturated. ALL vegetable and animal fats ARE esters.

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You want to give me a break? My ANAOLOGY was simply to ILLUSTRATE the difference between how esters and hydrocarbon oils BEHAVE on hot metal in an engine. I'm fully aware that veg oils are esters. I'm fully aware that the non-stick coating CAUSES the segmenting effect I mentioned, and that was the whole point of the ILLUSTRATION.

 

[Ray H]

Ok. Timeout, G-Man II - take as long a break as ya' like. You're unnecessarily personalizing a point of clarification to that of conflict. Odd that you feel competent to correct others, but feel you're above such, yourself. While you and I are in agreement on the technical points, I pointed up procedural inconsistencies that may have led other members to draw erroneous conclusions about esters with an ill-conceived demonstration using an ester inappropriately as a substitute for a dino. (If you can't stand the heat, get out of the frying pan.

) Can you argue that your demo would better illustrate your point than using raw, unadditized USP mineral oil in a freshly washed cast iron skillet? That at least would have demonstrated dino oil's native heat performance inferiority just as convincingly and accurately to boot. My response was not directed AT you. I was merely trying to establish a better understanding of the principles you originally outlined correctly. Now, I'll leave you the final word between us and wish you a nice rest of the day.

[ June 30, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]