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Are you saying, due to a variety of possible interactions, there is no way of predicting the effect of polar components on the effectiveness of A-Rx ?
Group II and III oils without any "polar content"
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i always thought Valvoline conventional or PYB should be fine for both clean and rinse phases
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Originally Posted By: (RT) ProjUltraZ
i always thought Valvoline conventional or PYB should be fine for both clean and rinse phases
I don't know. I don't know their constituents. Do you?
i always thought Valvoline conventional or PYB should be fine for both clean and rinse phases
I don't know. I don't know their constituents. Do you?
sure mori, here's Valvoline conv, pennzoils site is strange now, maybe it's my firefox but probably the same, 700-800 ppm zinc and phos and grp II/III
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Originally Posted By: [RT
ProjUltraZ]sure mori, here's Valvoline conv, pennzoils site is strange now, maybe it's my firefox but probably the same, 700-800 ppm zinc and phos and grp II/III
And the ZDDP comes with an ester?
ProjUltraZ]sure mori, here's Valvoline conv, pennzoils site is strange now, maybe it's my firefox but probably the same, 700-800 ppm zinc and phos and grp II/III
And the ZDDP comes with an ester?
that's what they say. then again 800 ppm means 800/1,000,000 by weight. so it's not a whole lot compared to 12oz of ARx
discounting the weight of the ester carrier of course
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Originally Posted By: [RT
ProjUltraZ] that's what they say. then again 800 ppm means 800/1,000,000 by weight. so it's not a whole lot compared to 12oz of ARx
Are you saying it's too little an amount of polar content to diminish A-Rx's effectiveness? If so, how do you know that, and where do you draw the line in terms of polar content?
ProjUltraZ] that's what they say. then again 800 ppm means 800/1,000,000 by weight. so it's not a whole lot compared to 12oz of ARx
Are you saying it's too little an amount of polar content to diminish A-Rx's effectiveness? If so, how do you know that, and where do you draw the line in terms of polar content?
me dont know, but say 12 oz of ARx in my 5qt oil change, and i leave a bit out not to overfill so 32oz x 5 qts - 10oz = 150 oz oil + 12oz ARx
ARx seems lighter than 30wt oil to me, but if they were the same weight, 12 oz ARx is like 75,000 ppm, ballpark
but that could be a big ballpark
ARx seems lighter than 30wt oil to me, but if they were the same weight, 12 oz ARx is like 75,000 ppm, ballpark
but that could be a big ballpark
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Don't know, maybe, probably... so far none of the supplied answers offer anything remotely concrete. Only the requirements for A-Rx to properly work have been outlined relatively clearly. There's an apparent clash between what's required and what's available to make A-Rx perform at its best.
Gosh dangit Mori don't make me break out the tiddly winks that I had to use back in the day when I was forced to take organic chemistry for 3 semesters. I think they cost me like $50 back in the 90's. I believe they tried to teach me something about a chair, a boat, aeromatics and something called chirality? There were a lot of good looking ladies in those classes so I didn't get much book learnin' done!
Seriously though I would estimate that the second you get some combustion byproducts in your oil you have some polarity introduced no matter what the base oil content or additives are (via oxidation, organic acid production and moisture inclusions). Oils blended with high levels of Overbased Calcium Sulfonate detergents will definitely exhibit more polarity with use than other less fortified oils. This would come from the formation of Calcium Oxides as the detergents react with iron molecules in the tribofilms. Most FM's have polar characteristics and most likely become more so as they break down. Remember you oil is slowly dying as soon as it is dumped down yee old fill hole...gosh that is a sad statement! Essentially I would be looking for a 10W40 group II+ diesel rated oil with a high TBN and that should be the optimal fill because it likely has lots of FM's and Overbased Calcium Sulfonate. The resident tribologists might have a lot more to add.
Seriously though I would estimate that the second you get some combustion byproducts in your oil you have some polarity introduced no matter what the base oil content or additives are (via oxidation, organic acid production and moisture inclusions). Oils blended with high levels of Overbased Calcium Sulfonate detergents will definitely exhibit more polarity with use than other less fortified oils. This would come from the formation of Calcium Oxides as the detergents react with iron molecules in the tribofilms. Most FM's have polar characteristics and most likely become more so as they break down. Remember you oil is slowly dying as soon as it is dumped down yee old fill hole...gosh that is a sad statement! Essentially I would be looking for a 10W40 group II+ diesel rated oil with a high TBN and that should be the optimal fill because it likely has lots of FM's and Overbased Calcium Sulfonate. The resident tribologists might have a lot more to add.
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cmon mori, i gave you a decent approximation and you dismiss it like it was near death or obsolete
even if you're troll-like, i'll still respect you if you're nice
even if you're troll-like, i'll still respect you if you're nice
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Originally Posted By: pickled
Gosh dangit Mori don't make me break out the tiddly winks that I had to use back in the day when I was forced to take organic chemistry for 3 semesters. I think they cost me like $50 back in the 90's. I believe they tried to teach me something about a chair, a boat, aeromatics and something called chirality? There were a lot of good looking ladies in those classes so I didn't get much book learnin' done!
Seriously though I would estimate that the second you get some combustion byproducts in your oil you have some polarity introduced no matter what the base oil content or additives are (via oxidation, organic acid production and moisture inclusions). Oils blended with high levels of Overbased Calcium Sulfonate detergents will definitely exhibit more polarity with use than other less fortified oils. This would come from the formation of Calcium Oxides as the detergents react with iron molecules in the tribofilms. Most FM's have polar characteristics and most likely become more so as they break down. Remember you oil is slowly dying as soon as it is dumped down yee old fill hole...gosh that is a sad statement! Essentially I would be looking for a 10W40 group II+ diesel rated oil with a high TBN and that should be the optimal fill because it likely has lots of FM's and Overbased Calcium Sulfonate. The resident tribologists might have a lot more to add.
All granted, but all those non-desirable constituents add up! Thank you for pointing out the degradation of oil during use, which of course changes the composition continually. Yet the requirements for A-Rx to work have been stated:
- no PAO (unless it's 100% PAO -- which does not exist)
- no esters
- no polar ingredients
If these requirements cannot be reasonably met, what's a thinking person to conclude? The mind wonders!*
*Also may wander or even meander, Gary A.
Gosh dangit Mori don't make me break out the tiddly winks that I had to use back in the day when I was forced to take organic chemistry for 3 semesters. I think they cost me like $50 back in the 90's. I believe they tried to teach me something about a chair, a boat, aeromatics and something called chirality? There were a lot of good looking ladies in those classes so I didn't get much book learnin' done!
Seriously though I would estimate that the second you get some combustion byproducts in your oil you have some polarity introduced no matter what the base oil content or additives are (via oxidation, organic acid production and moisture inclusions). Oils blended with high levels of Overbased Calcium Sulfonate detergents will definitely exhibit more polarity with use than other less fortified oils. This would come from the formation of Calcium Oxides as the detergents react with iron molecules in the tribofilms. Most FM's have polar characteristics and most likely become more so as they break down. Remember you oil is slowly dying as soon as it is dumped down yee old fill hole...gosh that is a sad statement! Essentially I would be looking for a 10W40 group II+ diesel rated oil with a high TBN and that should be the optimal fill because it likely has lots of FM's and Overbased Calcium Sulfonate. The resident tribologists might have a lot more to add.
All granted, but all those non-desirable constituents add up! Thank you for pointing out the degradation of oil during use, which of course changes the composition continually. Yet the requirements for A-Rx to work have been stated:
- no PAO (unless it's 100% PAO -- which does not exist)
- no esters
- no polar ingredients
If these requirements cannot be reasonably met, what's a thinking person to conclude? The mind wonders!*
*Also may wander or even meander, Gary A.
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Originally Posted By: (RT) ProjUltraZ
even if you're troll-like, i'll still respect you if you're nice
I'm neither short and squat, nor do I live under a bridge. Furthermore, I do not rob people. As for the topic, it is very much relevant and on-topic.
even if you're troll-like, i'll still respect you if you're nice
I'm neither short and squat, nor do I live under a bridge. Furthermore, I do not rob people. As for the topic, it is very much relevant and on-topic.
Then say it up front mori. What engine are you cleaning? Or are you bonering up for Frank again?
Frankly I think the whole polar and AutoRx thing reeks a bit. Like walrus breath. Fishy and extreme.
In plain English, there may be a tipping point, but I'm telling you there is some other chemistry going on. Think about the fact that AutoRx can't be added to an oil and sold as a viable product.
Frankly I think the whole polar and AutoRx thing reeks a bit. Like walrus breath. Fishy and extreme.
In plain English, there may be a tipping point, but I'm telling you there is some other chemistry going on. Think about the fact that AutoRx can't be added to an oil and sold as a viable product.
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Well, Pablo, I don't have a dirty engine, because I use fine, synthetic oil, which I change at appropriate intervals. Besides, I keep the rings free of those nasty engine-choking carbon deposits with daily Italian tune-ups, which essentially reflect my normal driving style.
I'm thinking in order for A-Rx to perform at its best it should be sold as a custom-tailored engine oil that already contains A-Rx and as a standalone concentrate to be added for the Cleaning Phase. I simply wouldn't feel comfortable picking haphazardly any Group II or Group III oil to use with A-Rx.
I wonder why you believe an engine oil with A-Rx already added couldn't possibly be a viable product.
Now, since you smell something fishy, I'm not sure your view is sufficiently unbiased.
I'm thinking in order for A-Rx to perform at its best it should be sold as a custom-tailored engine oil that already contains A-Rx and as a standalone concentrate to be added for the Cleaning Phase. I simply wouldn't feel comfortable picking haphazardly any Group II or Group III oil to use with A-Rx.
I wonder why you believe an engine oil with A-Rx already added couldn't possibly be a viable product.
Now, since you smell something fishy, I'm not sure your view is sufficiently unbiased.
Oh man this is way too much...Gary is going to get you soon if you don't watch out Mori. I can feel a GA written ensemble coming on soon to thwart your efforts! Maybe A-Rx would work well in unscented baby oil on the beach...
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Well, since I'm all done with this topic for the time being, it was merely meant as food for thought and not as trolling, Gary and whoever feels compelled to do so, may go ahead and peck away with gusto!
"Which oil to use with A-Rx?" will likely remain a future topic. I will observe with great interest and a critical mind all recommendations.
"Which oil to use with A-Rx?" will likely remain a future topic. I will observe with great interest and a critical mind all recommendations.
SA grade? That's just plain ol' dinosaur squeezin's, right? Of course you can't run that. Unless Auto-Rx really does replace the entire additive pack. Hmmm?
It's a valid question.
AutoRx downunder is a pricey beast, so a consumer would/should be able to maximise it's effectiveness to get the best bang for the buck.
Never thought of it before, but if a sludge was laid down with a highly polar oil (unlikely, but allegedly not impossible), what would drive the lanolin esters into the sludge to clean them off ?
AutoRx downunder is a pricey beast, so a consumer would/should be able to maximise it's effectiveness to get the best bang for the buck.
Never thought of it before, but if a sludge was laid down with a highly polar oil (unlikely, but allegedly not impossible), what would drive the lanolin esters into the sludge to clean them off ?
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