Green Kendall GT-1 With Accompanying Questions

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Alabama, United States
Metals
Iron Chromium Lead Copper 136
Tin Aluminum 1
Nickel Silver Titanium Vanadium
Contaminants
Silicon 4
Sodium 7
Potassium 2
Water 0.09%

Additives
Magnesium 1129
Calcium 5
Barium Phosphorus 1028
Zinc 1120
Molybdenum Boron 153

Physical Test
Viscosity (cSt 100C) 12.1
Viscosity (cSt 40C) 103.3

Base Number (mgKOH/g) 6.2

For those not familiar with my situation, I sampled this oil from a clean sealed glass jar, which was poured from two quart bottles that had collapsed under the weight of another case, causing small seep holes to form. I figure the water is condensation from the atmosphere getting into the seep holes, but I'm perplexed about the copper. Both water and copper amounts led ALS to issue a caution rating for this sample. Otherwise I find this to be a correct and reliable representation of SJ Kendall GT-1 SAE 30. What do you think?
 
Virgin oil, interesting. could it be part of the additive package? Maybe the copper is why the oil is green, I am grasping at straws
 
That's what I was thinking. I can see condensation forming even in the smallest amount, if any of it gets exposed to atmosphere, but copper? I've never known copper to be an additive, but I might be wrong. Maybe its just not used anymore?
 
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Good anti-wear (Phosphorus & Zinc), but no calcium says it can't be left in for any period of time. Good oil for race day - then drain when done.

Is the green dye the reason for the copper?
 
Originally Posted By: Red91
Wouldn't the magnesium and sodium do the same thing as a high amount of calcium?


I don't know the answer to that - I thought they were anti-friction/anti-scuff
 
Originally Posted By: Red91
That's what I was thinking. I can see condensation forming even in the smallest amount, if any of it gets exposed to atmosphere, but copper? I've never known copper to be an additive, but I might be wrong. Maybe its just not used anymore?

In another thread probably in UOA section, member SonOfJoe suggested copper was/is used as oil additives ...... and it was confirmed so.
blush.gif
 
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I was under the impression that copper only showed up on UOAs as a sign of wear. I wonder what it does as an additive. If it is an additive, and its supposed to be there, then I have nothing to worry about in using it.

What about the viscosity test and base number, do those things seem to be in line with a monograde 30?
 
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4302724/Re:_HIGH_COPPER_in_my_2008_Ela#Post4302724
 
Hi Red91,

Got your PM so here I am...

PBM, the chap that posted the original question on copper in used oil, got a VOA done on his Proline SJ oil. He sent me the results but didn't add them to his original thread. I hope he won't mind if I reproduce them below along with his comments...

Mg. 910
Calcium 21 (this is much lower than the 211 ppm in the UOA which was probably residual from the previous fill)
Phos. 945
Zn. 1236
Boron 105 (UOA was only 13....so I guess it used up the Boron)
Viscosity 10.6 (UOA was 9.9)
TBN 6.0 (UOA was 2.4)

There was

If I compare the PBM's ProLine SJ oil to your Kendall GT-1 SJ oil, what I essentially see is the same additive system. It's based on ZDDP (that's your Phosphorus & Zinc), 400 TBN Magnesium Sulphonate (that's your Mg and the bulk of your TBN), a Boronated Ashless Dispersant (the Boron and a titchy bit of TBN) and a Copper based antioxidant. The oil contains no Calcium Sulphonate or Moly. I don't know for sure but I would also hazard a guess that it contains no Di-Phenyl Amine antioxidant.

The Kendall oil is more viscous and this may be because it's a SAE 30 oil whereas the Proline oil is a 10W30 (not 100% sure on this but it would make sense).

In general the metals results on the Kendall oil are about 10% higher than those of the Proline oil but my gut feel is that the ICP results of the Kendall oil are falsely high. If they were real, the TBN would also be higher and it isn't. If you ran the two oils on the same ICP machine, back-to-back, then I suspect both oils would be more or less identical and would represent the market general SJ additive system that was being sold by Paramins back then.

As I said in the other post, I'm not entirely sure what this Copper AO is but Copper Oleate is supposedly a greeny-blue colour (my wife said it was 'teal' but she's not technical!!) and this might fit with the fact that the Kendall oil is green.

These oils are typical of the highly minimalistic, highly cost-effective (but frankly not very good) oils that existed at the time. You wouldn't want to go much beyond a 3k OCI on such an oil. Virtually any oil you can buy off the shelf today would knock both of these old oils into a cocked hat.
 
Originally Posted By: Red91
Thank you. I'll PM you with a few questions regarding this subject. I appreciate you taking a moment to look this over.

Hmmm...... why not sharing on this forum to benefit fellow members as well ?
blush.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Red91
If I'm interpreting your comments on the Kendall correctly, you're saying the copper content of the oil could be a split between antioxidant and dye? However you think the tested level may be a false reading?

Did the TBN and viscosity look to be on par with an SAE 30?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to understand my results correctly. I'm wanting to run this in my Roadmaster in my signature. I was wanting to aim for 4K miles, as that's what I've got on the Delo currently in the sump. I've been using LM MoS2 and it seems to make the engine run smoother, and I figured since this Kendall virtually has no molybdenum, it certainly may make the oil a little "better".

I've taken note in your previous post that you are not a fan of short OCI's, so for you to recommended I only use this oil to 3K max, you must really think it won't last. I don't mind changing it early, as long as the opinion is that it will be good for those 3K miles....your thoughts?
 
I'll answer Red91's questions here if that's okay...

The Copper additive is there primarily as an antioxidant. However the fact that the compound just happens to be coloured, might impart a green colour to the oil. Other additives I've come across are coloured and do this. Just so it's clear there is about 100 ppm of Copper 'metal' in the oil. Assume there is about 10% metal in Copper Oleate, so there is roughly 1000 ppm (or 0.1%) Cupric Oleate in the finished oil.

One of the things you very quickly find out when you're formulating oil is to distrust measurements from the lab! ICP metals do bounce around a bit. It's no-ones fault. It's just how it is. The TBN numbers (of 6.0 & 6.2) are more consistent and just to be clear, 1.5% of 400 TBN Magnesium Sulphonate will give you 6 TBN.

The KV100 of 12.1 cst is consistent with the oil being an SAE 30. At a guess the base oil will be something like 500SN and given the age of the oil; possibly a Group I base oil.

Looking at the Phosphorus level, this oil contains about 1.2% of ZDDP. Going back to the original 1989 patent, it looks like there might be just 3.0% Boronated Ashless Dispersant in the oil.

Put it all together and it looks like the Kendall oil is a 500SN base oil containing a total DI treat of 5.2% (and no VII as it's a monograde). This is skinny; especially for a heavy Group I to deal with. By all means go ahead and use it but keep an eye on the dipstick. Once this oil starts to darken, get it out because once it starts to oxidise, it will go bad very quickly.

Hope this helps.

Ahhh...Just read you're using MoS2. I'm not a fan on MoS2 although I'm a huge fan of 'proper' oil soluble Moly AO's. I guess one problem might be that with MoS2 present, you can't tell when the oil is 'one the turn' because the MoS2 will turn even the fresh oil black. Judging when to pull the oil is therefore problematic. Tricky...
 
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So would it be better to just run the Kendall alone without the MoS2? Ive had good experience with the product and have noted the oil never gets completely black in an interval, even with the additive. I check the oil on a regular basis, and the car is also equipped with a "low oil" light. I should also add the car is equipped with an oil cooler, so would that help keep the oil's condition in proper shape longer?
 
Yes, the oil cooler will definitely reduce the tendency of the oil to oxidise which is the big risk here. In terms of wear, even without the MoS2, the oil should be very good.
I'd probably not go with the MoS2 but TBH, I have absolutely no experience with it. If you've got good experience with it, maybe you should just stick with it.

Good luck with the oil, whatever you decide on.
 
I greatly appreciate your input. You should post more often, as you have history in the oil industry and vast knowledge. I think I'll use the MoS2 this next oil change(will be the third consecutive run), and maybe try it without the next go, as it was explained to me that once you've laid down a layer of it, you can begin to reduce the amounts considerably for each oil change. I think I'll aim for 4K miles and keep an eye on the dipstick as well. Again, thank you for your input.
 
This is a very, very old-school oil formulation...copper is an anti-wear additive that was used primarily in the late 1970's and early 1980's; the magnesium-only DI additive is another 1970's characteristic, as is the use of a thick group-1 30wt base oil.

This was a race oil designed for short drains on 1960's and 1970's musclecars and hot rods...but really neat to see!

Thanks for this!
 
I'm rather pleased. I only ever found one other reliable VOA, so I just decided to get one done on my own. I currently have 22 quarts of this GT-1 30, and I'm trying to work a deal to get more. Its my understanding that as long as I stick to a 3-4K interval I'll be in good shape wear-wise, and that's what I do anyway because of short trips and occasional idling.
 
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