Goodbye to little red wagon

[jason07-1zzfe]

Say goodbye to another one. Brach's is another one recently. I need to start a spreadsheet to keep track of all this...it's getting ridiculous lately...one after another

http://cbs2chicago.com/siteSearch/local_story_090181456.html

Go economy! It's great! (if you're a CEO)

 

[TC]

Yeah, the Little Red Wagon is toast, but that's a GOOD thing, right? Or so believes the Bush administration. Expect more and more firms to ship their operations overseas, a trend publicly embraced by the White House...

March 30, 2004
"Treasury Secretary John Snow is reigniting the political debate over US companies shipping jobs overseas. While in Cincinnati yesterday, Snow says "outsourcing" is an integral part of the global trading system. His comments come in a state that's lost 80-thousand manufacturing jobs."
http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/oh/news18.shtml

February 13, 2004
"...the president's Chief Economic Adviser, Greg Mankiw...wrote that the movement of U.S. jobs overseas due to cheaper labor costs – 'outsourcing' he dubbed it in a remarkable display of political tone deafness – would prove 'a plus for the economy in the long run,' and was simply 'a new way of doing international trade.'" http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/13/opinion/main600351.shtml

 

[outrun]

"Outsourcing" is the natural progression of the global market.

I kind of see this backlash of reminiscent of unionist in detroit having a import bashing demonstration.

Or how everyone thought the Japanese were going to economically over run the United States in the 1980's.

"I think Im Turning Japanese" [paraphrased from that 80's song]

Guess what? Detroit survived although the market share of GM dwindled? GM/Ford/Chrysler reducing there quality standards was tantamount to suicide.

The Japanese gladly picked up those lost customers.

If India is full of highly skilled fluent English speakers then all the power to them.

To think that suddenly the United States holds a monopoly on the English language is silly.

If anything globalization will bring this ancient civilization back into "the fold." Nehru shot India in the foot by isolating it...The US shot ourselves in the foot by siding with Pakistan instead.

Why give a country foreign aid when they can "learn to fish."

One thing out sourcing critics do not talk about is the something I and many other companies observed:

There is a definate differential in worth ethic between Asians and people in this hemisphere.

For them 60-80 work week is about honor. Here we are a bit more casual. I sense a huge stress on "perfection" also.

Getting a 3.7 GPA can dishonor your family...where as anything less than 4.0 is unacceptable.

Let's face it America is dealing with some pretty educated countries holding vibrant, nationlist and cash to spend yuppies.

America can not afford to be complacent when it comes to competetiveness nor can we be reactionary and adopt isolationist trade barriers.

So what if Dell, IBM, Delta Airlines out source?

All that means is we need to find more sectors we can adapt and grow in.

If you really need to get tough do it with China...no seems to have the backbone to stand up to that pothetic regime.

We all have products in our car made elsewhere.

Outsourcing happens in many manifestations.

I think it is just easy to pick on people that do not look like you thats all

Kerry & Bush : Please be wise enough not to initate some impulsive knee jerk policy response.

 

[wulimaster]

quote:

---

Originally posted by outrun:
"Outsourcing" is the natural progression of the global market.

All that means is we need to find more sectors we can adapt and grow in.

---

Outsourcing is one of the final steps taken by the globalist before indentured slavery.

What sector would that be and why can't it be exported also?

When you graduate from whereever it is you are a student at, will you be willing to take a job for 15,000 a year with a Phd of course so that you can compete.

Someone making 15k a year in India is the equivalent of someone making 600k here in the US. That is about 20 times their national average. What type of life do you expect to have in the future?

In order to compete the US must have a financial meltdown so that property and income is devalued 20 times. Bankruptcy will turn over most of the property to the Banks who will sell it to those holding dollars overseas. Most will have to start over as tenents to landlords and rents, food, and all costs will always keep up with the pay. Not being property owners, most will remain in a state of servatude, surviving only at the leisure of their new masters.

Like the movie with Stallone whose title escapes me, the police will live a better life than most. I do not think Taco Bell will be the highlight of dining cuisine though.

 

[TC]

OUTRUN: Actually, here's two respected authorities (of many) who strongly beg to differ, compliments of the March 15th issue of U.S. News & World Report...

"Many of the jobs lost to overseas workers are the result of costly 'free' trade agreements. The Economic Policy Institute estimates that nearly 900,000 American jobs have been lost because of NAFTA alone. Yet the president continues the pursuit of similar pacts with a seemingly endliss list of nations, including Singapore and Chile. U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick says the Bush administration will continue to promote an 'active and comprehensive' trade liberalization agenda through 2004. The U.S. hasn't had a trade surplus in more than two decades. And I, for one, fail to see how the policies that have led to a half-trillion dollar trade deficit and a dependence on the rest of the world for manufactured goods as well as capital could be construed as liberating trade for this country."
Lou Dobb, "The Dobbs Report" (and CNN "Moneyline" host), page 58

"The sputtering American job machine contributes to the stagnation...That translates to a shortfall of 8 million Americans who would have been at work if our recent economic recovery had followed a typical trajectory...Outsourcing has become the symbol of middle-class anxiety over the seepage of information jobs to India, and even to China, that were supposed to take the place of all those lost manufacturing jobs. Is it any wonder so many Americans today see economic opportunities disolving, with jobs, wages, and benefits getting squeezed and squeezed again? Millions of middle-class Americans are living from paycheck to paycheck, struggling to pay their bills...A slient tidal wave of bankruptcies is now creasting across America's middle class...Large, multinational corporations, meanwhile, are thriving as their profits benefit from outsourcing and cost cutting...A recent N.Y. Times/CBS News poll found that 58% of Americans believe that Bush is more interested in protecting large corporations than ordinary people..."
Mortimer Zuckerman, Editor-in-Chief, page 84

[ March 31, 2004, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Nestle Foods, the largest food company in the world, closed their original U.S. chocolate factory in Fulton, NY last year in order to make the Crunch Bars in Brazil.

I no longer buy anything made by Nestle.

 

[labman]

Protectionism just doesn't work. Japan is highly protectionist, yet their economy has been in the tank for at least 10 years. Much of Europe is the same. Unfortunately, the good old days when America could exist as an island of riches in a sea of poverty are gone for good and no amount of trade barriers will bring them back. We do need to look at our tax structure. Competitors in other countries pay very little on goods exported to America, either here or at home. American goods have both our income tax built into their cost and pay a value added tax if exported. I would be happy with a tax that would put our factory workers back to work and leave the lawyers and accountants needing to find productive employment.

Outsourcing is sort of half a loaf is better than none. American workers are better off with goods assembled in Mexico from made in America materials than with ones assembled in the Philippines from Japanese materials. Unfortunately, all of us are going to have to scramble much harder for less than in the past. We must not sell ourselves short. We must do all we can to encourage the innovative and ambitious among us. We must believe in ourselves, we can compete.

 

[Shannow]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GROUCHO MARX:
Nestle Foods, the largest food company in the world, closed their original U.S. chocolate factory in Fulton, NY last year in order to make the Crunch Bars in Brazil.

I no longer buy anything made by Nestle.

---

Groucho,
similarly here.

I will buy imported and foreign owned goods, generally without batting an eyelid.

But any of the great Oz icons that have been sold out or moved, I refuse to buy.

(Yes, Australians CAN live without vegemite

)

 

[outrun]

That looks like partisan rambling to me TC!

The EU understands labor mobility and outsourcing very well.

Outsourcing is a foreign investment multiplyier.

The EU understands outsourcing very well....how many VW plants from Germany are now in the Czech Republic?

Just a few years ago all the W.Europeans were crying "OMG, the east europeans will take our jobs away."

Effective May 2nd, the Czech Republic will be politically re-united with Continental Europe.

The argument dies there.

Corrolating my point?

We live in a global marketplace and economy.

American human resource is not elite and we are not the only players in the game.

So either you lock the stadium to competition and stagnate or you its open season and we play ball with real teams.

Wait till the Europeans further capitilize Asia intellectual resources- Do you want them to beat American companies to it???

I do not think the most lucrative tax benefits can stop this. This process is inevitable to the global economy.

Those two authors skipped the core issue at hand.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

outrun please help me out then, obviously I am not as smart as you

. That was part s/a but also serious as I am by no means an economics major.

I would like to know, will the Little Red Wagon go down in price now that production cost is lower? How about Brach's or Nestle foods?
The answer is no. So HOW is that helping ME or my COMMUNITY?!
You also mentioned GM and Detroit... Sure they are still around, they survived...great... if you could call it that. But who cares because there isn't much American about them anymore except the corporate types. Again...how is this helping me or my community?
Toyota is now more American than most GMs. And I know if I ever buy a new car, they will be considered more than GM. And GM will be up $#$% creek w/o a paddle when the rest of the public realises this because most want to buy "American". GM doesn't have much going for them than the "American" arguement but that is not valid anymore!

So one arguement used to be shifting structure. Moving to service economy...Well those jobs are leaving too...again I ask how this helps me or my community? Because you have not answered that question yet. All I see that will happen is widening of the gap between rich and poor and extinction of middle class.

 

[outrun]

So one arguement used to be shifting structure. Moving to service economy...Well those jobs are leaving too...again I ask how this helps me or my community? Because you have not answered that question yet. All I see that will happen is widening of the gap between rich and poor and extinction of middle class.

A) I do not think I am smart or the oracle of delphi by a long shot

If I was that smart I be already making a planned 6-figure salary!

B) Your question is serious and valid.

It is a difficult solution for one I can not answer.

So I present these problems: If we can change people here then we become more competetive.

There is however as you mentioned a difference between Service jobs and Manufacturing.

Service is complex. For example anyone could be a 1-800 credit card or Airline reservation customer specialist. You only need the English Language, rudimentary computer skills and some common sense courtesy *lol*

Then again the second aspect (of many) for call centers becomes more specific.

I am sure you have had a situation where your insurance claim was denied since the idiot the insurance adjuster had nil medical experiance what so ever. How can such a person have the know how to know the value of any medical test or procedure when your health is at stake?

So in comes India plenty of doctors and engineers who would be glad to take up these calls at a fraction of the wage.

Would you not want a doctor reviewing your critical cancer bioposy order over some twenty-x year old with no medical experiance at a call center?

Wages aside, i think we live in a corporate situation where companies are rightfully paranoid
of being sued XXX million by anyone for frivlous reason.

2nd, I already indicated the percieved work ethic difference. Why give people smoke etc breaks when we can work them hard elsewhere and they won't sue us for anything

? They will gladly get the job done and not B*** about it.

So people need to start working 110% in whatever job they have. No excuses or nothing. The harder you work the more profitable/valuable you become.

Yes, I still can not answer your question. So this little story may lead you in the right direction:

I will close with a corporate culture trait of Japanese executives vs. American ones. Perhaps the American companies could have done more...the answer is elusive.

Company is in Trouble

What do you do?

American CEO: get rid of anyone necessary!

Japanese CEO: How much of my salary and that of my executives should we cut to save as many employees as possible.

PS - My Chevrolet was built in Quebec, Canada

Since i love Canada I consider it one and the same of an "American" car built in Detroit.

I know Canadians get pissed off if you say we (canadians and americans) are the same...but it is a compliment of sort.

 

[Pablo]

Jason makes a good point....if we get lower prices there is SOME benefit. But if the price stays the same, the company should be making more money....so guess I want? I want a piece of THAT action!

Listen, my real job is fairly China related. Keeps me in going there alot....

Wife just came in the office with $35 worth of decent dress socks for me.....(not THAT many pairs)....Made in Korea.

 

[sbc350gearhead]

Well, I am not an economics expert, and I am not very well educated........but it seems to me that losing jobs to other countries, is a very bad thing. Many of these products that are being built in other countries....only have a market in america. How many 30k dollar cars is a mexican going to buy, when he makes 3 dollars an hour. That is probably not quite accurate.......but you get my drift. Producing products in other countries for less money....will have no effect on retail price here. Greed is the major reason for moving production........so why lower the price.

When jobs move overseas....the total taxes received by the govt, goes down, therefore taxes must be increased for those who have jobs to make up for it.

IMO, this shift of jobs, will wreak havoc on the american economy, and eventually the world economy, when the largest product market in the world is destroyed. How many indian computer experts are you going to need to supply tech support to america........when noone in america can afford a computer?

 

[outrun]

How many indian computer experts are you going to need to supply tech support to america........when noone in america can afford a computer?

The neat thing about America i believe is that we will find another economic field to "invent" and "excel" in.

That is until that economic field shifts to other countries which is inevitable.

America never dries up for ideas and innovation.

When I look around all i see are American inventions the world gladly adopted.

So perhaps while one job may export we need to do our best to find the next "cool" thing to beat the world at.

Our wages are high and its difficult to comprehend loosing your job over that?

I think the only way out is for each of to become extremely competetive at what we do.

Be the top man at wherever you work. If not that that try if possible to get as educated as possible to make yourself open to alternate career fields.

The way I understand it unfortuantely that in this day and age job security is a joke.

This process started under Bush I and Clinton...so it is clearly not some "partisan" blame issue!

The day in which you keep the same job for 30+ years non-stop to retirement may be at an end