going over my mpg records and thick oil did not hurt mpg's

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quote:

Originally posted by toyvwbenz:
Motorbike,

I don't think my recent poor mileage is completely caused by the Mystik CI-4. The engine is not running quite as well as normal. I'm getting a bit of vibration at hot idle. I'm guessing the 02 sensor is getting weak. About 97K miles on the original. Maybe the CI-4 oils are putting deposits on the sensor? Are there any additives that will clean an O2 sensor?


All other things being equal, a HDEO will NOT create deposits that damage O2 sensors or catalytic convertors.

Indeed, by using a good HDEO or thicker PCEO that reduces oil consumption, you will have less oil vapor passing through the system and the O2 sensor should last longer.

Personally, I'd never try to get more than 70,000-80,000 miles from an O2 sensor. You won't get the MIL (Malfunciton Indicator Lamp or "check engine") on an OBD1 car until the O2 sensor quits altogether.

On OBDII cars (Current cars made since 1996), there is a basic O2 sensor map to determine if the sensor is working ok, but you won't get the MIL until it's almost kaput.

On both my 1990 Toyota 4Runner and 1992 Honda Prelude, both purchased new, I noticed a decline in fuel economy after about 100,000km. Changing the O2 sensors helped boost the fuel economy back to normal levels.

I plan on doing the same with my 2000 GMC Sierra, but there are FOUR O2 sensors. Hope the price doesn't make me shriek.

I don't know what kind of car you drive. Check with NAPA or AUtozone and see if they carry an O2 sensor that fits. I've always used NAPA aftermarket with good results, certainly far cheaper than OEM.

In most cases, the NAPA Neihoff is a Bosch sensor made in Germany. I would look into this as a degraded O2 sensor can ruin the cat.

Vibration at idle when hot can be caused by injector deposits, intake valve deposits, combustion chamber deposits, bad plugs, plugged/dirty TB and IAC (Throttle Body and Idle AIr Control) system, and a stuck PCV valve.

FWIW: I clean my TB and IAC on my 2000 GMC Sierra every fall and spring. I use the 3M Throttle Body Cleaner, it states safe for O2 sensors and coated throttle body blades. Motor runs like new.

Jerry
 
quote:

Originally posted by SSDude:

quote:

Originally posted by JHZR2:
Ive never seen any consumption of 30wt oils in vehicles suggesting the use of them.

JMH


Have you ever heard of the LS1!!!!


Oh you bet I have.

The new GM truck Vortec motors (4.8 litre, 5.3 litre, and 6 litre V8) are based on the LS1. Same basic design: coil per cylinder ignition with no distributor, oil pump at the front of the crank, composite intake manifold, etc etc. Though the Vortec uses iron block with aluminum heads.

GM is telling Vortec truck owners that 1 quart of oil every 100 gallons of gasoline is "normal." That's using the recommended 5W-30 "Starburst" oil.

Jerry
 
quote:

Originally posted by toyvwbenz:
Motorbike,

I don't think my recent poor mileage is completely caused by the Mystik CI-4. The engine is not running quite as well as normal. I'm getting a bit of vibration at hot idle. I'm guessing the 02 sensor is getting weak. About 97K miles on the original. Maybe the CI-4 oils are putting deposits on the sensor? Are there any additives that will clean an O2 sensor?


Well you did not post that the engine was running poorly also
grin.gif



Posted by heyjey :

Indeed, by using a good HDEO or thicker PCEO that reduces oil consumption, you will have less oil vapor passing through the system and the O2 sensor should last longer.

A thicker blend of base oils does not make for a better NOAK . Still going to flash off the lighter hydrocarbons with about any dino , does not matter how good the ring seal .

I'm not certain on all the HD 15w-40's but the Shell , Citgo and Mobil uses a portion of group I basestock still . More likely than not they all do .

[ March 05, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
 
quote:

Well you did not post that the engine was running poorly also

To clarify, the engine is not running "poorly". Plenty of smooth power and it starts just fine. Also, zero oil consumption over 3-4K miles. A 2-3 mpg drop during Dec. and Jan. is not that bad. I've just had a little buzz type vibration at hot idle for a couple months now. Basically the same period that the Mystik oil has been in the pan.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Motorbike:

quote:

Originally posted by toyvwbenz:
Motorbike,

I don't think my recent poor mileage is completely caused by the Mystik CI-4. The engine is not running quite as well as normal. I'm getting a bit of vibration at hot idle. I'm guessing the 02 sensor is getting weak. About 97K miles on the original. Maybe the CI-4 oils are putting deposits on the sensor? Are there any additives that will clean an O2 sensor?


Well you did not post that the engine was running poorly also
grin.gif



Posted by heyjey :

Indeed, by using a good HDEO or thicker PCEO that reduces oil consumption, you will have less oil vapor passing through the system and the O2 sensor should last longer.

A thicker blend of base oils does not make for a better NOAK . Still going to flash off the lighter hydrocarbons with about any dino , does not matter how good the ring seal .

I'm not certain on all the HD 15w-40's but the Shell , Citgo and Mobil uses a portion of group I basestock still . More likely than not they all do .


Motorbike:

Look, I've been running HD equipment for almost 24 years.

A HDEO has certain basic requirements. It MUST, I repeat, MUST, reduce oil consumption. Why?

HD diesel motors were redesigned a while back to minimise blowby and particulate emissions. This was mandated by our "friends" at the EPA.

The primary change in HD diesel motors occured in the pistons. The Ring Land (The groves where the piston oil control and compression rings are located) and the Crown Land (The top of the piston, the squish bowl where the diesel is injected and compressed for compression combustion) were moved MUCH closer together.

In many cases, this distance was reduced to less than half before the mandated changes.

A poorly formulated oil and/or an oil with poor additive package performance broke down in the Top Grove. This left behind carbon/varnish deposits in the Top Grove of the piston.

The first noticeable symptom was the Top Ring stuck. This created massive oil consumption and really accelerated the deposit formation.

Once the Top Ring stuck/broke, the rest of the rings quickly had deposits and they also stuck/broke: massive oil consumption, lost compression, etc etc.

So HDEO are MANDATED to be less volitile, to keep oil consumption to an absolute minimum, and in that respect they have much more in common with ACEA A3/A5 oils.

HDEO are MANDATED in testing to keep Top Grove Fill at or below 15%. Volitility at or below 20%.

There is also the issue of soot. HDEO must control the massive soot loads now that the EPA has again mandated a change, so most HD diesel motors (Cummins ISX, etc) now run with EGR. All the soot that used to blow out the stack now ends up in the sump.

So the HDEO must also have much higher detergent/dispersant treat levels. In a new motor, this promotes a clean motor.

True, there is always a thin film of oil left behind in the cross-hatch, so a minimum amount of oil use can be expected. It's how the oil behaves in the Ring Land that determines which HDEO rating it receives.

Of course, you have HDEO that meet the spec, and HDEO that exceed the spec.

Used in a gasoline motor, especially from new, that "tractor oil" can be expected to keep the motor squeaky clean and oil consumption minimal.

Jerry
 
quote:

Originally posted by heyjay:

quote:

Originally posted by Motorbike:

quote:

Originally posted by toyvwbenz:
Motorbike,

I don't think my recent poor mileage is completely caused by the Mystik CI-4. The engine is not running quite as well as normal. I'm getting a bit of vibration at hot idle. I'm guessing the 02 sensor is getting weak. About 97K miles on the original. Maybe the CI-4 oils are putting deposits on the sensor? Are there any additives that will clean an O2 sensor?


Well you did not post that the engine was running poorly also
grin.gif



Posted by heyjey :

Indeed, by using a good HDEO or thicker PCEO that reduces oil consumption, you will have less oil vapor passing through the system and the O2 sensor should last longer.

A thicker blend of base oils does not make for a better NOAK . Still going to flash off the lighter hydrocarbons with about any dino , does not matter how good the ring seal .

I'm not certain on all the HD 15w-40's but the Shell , Citgo and Mobil uses a portion of group I basestock still . More likely than not they all do .


Motorbike:

Look, I've been running HD equipment for almost 24 years.

A HDEO has certain basic requirements. It MUST, I repeat, MUST, reduce oil consumption. Why?

HD diesel motors were redesigned a while back to minimise blowby and particulate emissions. This was mandated by our "friends" at the EPA.

The primary change in HD diesel motors occured in the pistons. The Ring Land (The groves where the piston oil control and compression rings are located) and the Crown Land (The top of the piston, the squish bowl where the diesel is injected and compressed for compression combustion) were moved MUCH closer together.

In many cases, this distance was reduced to less than half before the mandated changes.

A poorly formulated oil and/or an oil with poor additive package performance broke down in the Top Grove. This left behind carbon/varnish deposits in the Top Grove of the piston.

The first noticeable symptom was the Top Ring stuck. This created massive oil consumption and really accelerated the deposit formation.

Once the Top Ring stuck/broke, the rest of the rings quickly had deposits and they also stuck/broke: massive oil consumption, lost compression, etc etc.

So HDEO are MANDATED to be less volitile, to keep oil consumption to an absolute minimum, and in that respect they have much more in common with ACEA A3/A5 oils.

HDEO are MANDATED in testing to keep Top Grove Fill at or below 15%. Volitility at or below 20%.

There is also the issue of soot. HDEO must control the massive soot loads now that the EPA has again mandated a change, so most HD diesel motors (Cummins ISX, etc) now run with EGR. All the soot that used to blow out the stack now ends up in the sump.

So the HDEO must also have much higher detergent/dispersant treat levels. In a new motor, this promotes a clean motor.

True, there is always a thin film of oil left behind in the cross-hatch, so a minimum amount of oil use can be expected. It's how the oil behaves in the Ring Land that determines which HDEO rating it receives.

Of course, you have HDEO that meet the spec, and HDEO that exceed the spec.

Used in a gasoline motor, especially from new, that "tractor oil" can be expected to keep the motor squeaky clean and oil consumption minimal.

Jerry


All that has nothing to do with the volatility of the base oil and that was what I was speaking about
wink.gif
You can have good ring seal and still flash off the lighter hydrocarbons of the base oil and that is ... the vapor you spoke of period . But I've said that already .
smile.gif


BTW , When I talk of tractor oils , it's never in context with diesel engines . Only the mis application of using those heavy vi @ 40c oils in these modern OHC and other engines when there is always a better choice ;)these days . Thats why they make so many oils and 10w-30 Tractor oils are few and far between in quarts .

Ever heard a Miata start with 15w-40 tractor oil in it at 40F ? I have and it ain't a good thing . It would lead to early engine failure using these oils in many engines in the right conditions without worry from the one writing the prescription for this type bad medicine , trust me
smile.gif
I would never want that to happen to anyone due to what he read on the internet .

BTW , I have a buddy w/ 1992 Ford 302 . 310k on Pennzoil .... PCMO . Mines at near 200k , this is the third 302 I've owned . The other two went around 220k all on 10w-30 . I've been around the block in life too ... sometimes really really fast though
smile.gif


Never mind though cause it's...the weekend !
smile.gif


So Jerry , no worries and you too have a nice one
cheers.gif
 
quote:

Originally posted by toyvwbenz:

quote:

I don't know what kind of car you drive.

As stated in the first post, 94 Toyota pickup(22RE).


Sorry this thread has become so long I should have gone to the very top and looked at it again.

You have a single O2 sensor before the catalytic convertor. California emissions models have two O2 sensors (One before and one after the cat).

The 22R and 22RE motor is one of the most common 4 cylinder motors in the world, and Toyota uses the same exact motor in Central America, South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, and Australia.

In addition to the points I previously mentioned, when was the last time you checked your valve clearance?

Jerry
 
I saw a change in mileage from 12.5km/l to 11.5km/l, all due to the change in viscoscity of the oil.

I swapped Delo400 for a Shell 25W-70.

It did noticeably affect power.

But it's an extreme example.

When I get it registered again (after I sell the 4Runner), it's got 30 weight in it.
 
Motorbike:

With all due respect, that has EVERYTHING to do with how volitile the base stock is. A HDEO with a highly volitile basestock would never meet CI-4, let alone even CF-4, specs.

Even when you can compare PCEO and HDEO in similar grades, say 10W-30 or 5W-30, the HDEO will have much higher TBN and will be MUCH less volitile to meet CI-4 Top Grove Fill specs.

Toyvwbenz has a 1994 Toyota pickup with the proven 22RE 4 cylinder motor. Viscosity charts that Toyota uses in other parts of the world, far away from the EPA CAFE nonsense, are very revealing.

For example, a 5W-30 has a cutoff of +10 C / +50 F.

You can use 10W-30 from -18 C / 0 F to +38 C / 100 F. A 15W-40 can be used from -12 C / +10 F beyond +38 C / 100 F.

And a 20W-50 is used from -7 C / +20 F beyond +38 C / 100 F. You can bet Toyota did testing to determine the safe upper AND lower limits.

In Australia, Toyota prefers a 20W-50 year round. Makes you wonder what would happen to a new Toyota owner in Oz if that new owner ran 5W-30 year round. Probably void the warranty.

As far as the Mazda Miata, a little common sense is called for. Although Toyota claims a 15W-40 is safe at far lower temps, perhaps Mazda is not safe at that temp.

I bought new a 1980 Toyota pickup and ran Esso XD-3 15W-40 in summer and Esso XD-3 "Arctic" 0W-30 in winter, same as my fleet. When I sold in 1984 the next owner kept that up until 1993 when the thing finally rusted all the way through. The motor was perfect though.

I'm happy to hear you got so much life out of your 302's running PCEO. Most 302's around here don't last 100,000 miles run that way.

Jerry
 
hejay you hit the nail square on the head! I have owned several 22RE engined vechiles and all lived life on 20W50 in the warm months until I switched to synthetic. If I lived some place that had a true winter it got 10W30. I have never had one wear out. THe vechiles either got traded in for something newer, rusted away or were involved in serious accidents!
 
quote:

In addition to the points I previously mentioned, when was the last time you checked your valve clearance?

I have adjusted the valves every 30K. Last one about a year ago. The truck really runs great. I will wait until summer mpg figures before I get serious about changing the 02 sensor. They run about $130.
frown.gif
 
Motorbike,

I don't think my recent poor mileage is completely caused by the Mystik CI-4. The engine is not running quite as well as normal. I'm getting a bit of vibration at hot idle. I'm guessing the 02 sensor is getting weak. About 97K miles on the original. Maybe the CI-4 oils are putting deposits on the sensor? Are there any additives that will clean an O2 sensor?
 
quote:

Originally posted by toyvwbenz:

quote:

In addition to the points I previously mentioned, when was the last time you checked your valve clearance?

I have adjusted the valves every 30K. Last one about a year ago. The truck really runs great. I will wait until summer mpg figures before I get serious about changing the 02 sensor. They run about $130.
frown.gif


You have me stumped.

I mentioned the usual culprits: deposits in intake valves / combustion chamber, dirty TB/IAC, bad PCV valve, plugs, etc.

Does that motor still use a distributor or does it have the coil-per-cylinder? If it still has a distributor, check for worn bushings.

Jerry
 
Just to address the original post on mpg... it appears the better ring + combustion sealing of heavier oils is offset by their relatively higher viscous drag. A "push".

As far as documented mpg gains with synthetics...


"In recent tests carried out on vehicles in Germany SLX Long Life 2 resulted in a fuel saving of 2.72%"

http://www.audi.co.uk/customer/servicingoption.jsp

[ March 16, 2004, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
 
An Update:

Adjusted my timing in May, it was advanced one degree so I set it to spec. Been using Pennzoil HD30 oil. Average fuel economy this summer has dropped to 24.5 mpg as compared the last summer(May-Aug) on Delo 15W-40 which was 25.3 mpg. This summer has been very mild and I haven't used the A/C nearly as much as last summer. I am obviously loosing fuel efficiency. I will get a UOA in October and will change the O2 sensor.
 
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