Porsches don't get driven that much, compared to grocery-getter type cars. You'd have to look far and wide to find a 200k Porsche. They also tend to get babied, which the average car does not.
GM makes big move up in J.D. Power quality survey
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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You see plenty of old FWD A cars still running around, as well as bunches on barely maintained but still kicking GM cars from the 'nineties.
That's kind of the thing, they really screwed up from about 1997-2009 ish on anything with a V6. Super cheap rustproofing on W-bodies. EVAP leaks. Those intake gaskets. Piston slap. The LS series V8 trucks are fine and the 4 cyl cars (save the aveo) grind along like cockroaches.
My 2007 ecotec HHR slipped through most QC issues but its rear doors are rusting under a dumb plastic trim cover. Six years is a little soon.
The Aveos run forever ... IF you change the timing belt at 60K miles. NOT 90K as recommended by GM.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You see plenty of old FWD A cars still running around, as well as bunches on barely maintained but still kicking GM cars from the 'nineties.
That's kind of the thing, they really screwed up from about 1997-2009 ish on anything with a V6. Super cheap rustproofing on W-bodies. EVAP leaks. Those intake gaskets. Piston slap. The LS series V8 trucks are fine and the 4 cyl cars (save the aveo) grind along like cockroaches.
My 2007 ecotec HHR slipped through most QC issues but its rear doors are rusting under a dumb plastic trim cover. Six years is a little soon.
The Aveos run forever ... IF you change the timing belt at 60K miles. NOT 90K as recommended by GM.
Originally Posted By: guyonearth
Porsches don't get driven that much, compared to grocery-getter type cars. You'd have to look far and wide to find a 200k Porsche. They also tend to get babied, which the average car does not.
I think it depends on the owner. i know 2 people that have porsches and they both drive them like they are meant to and one is their daily driver.
Porsches don't get driven that much, compared to grocery-getter type cars. You'd have to look far and wide to find a 200k Porsche. They also tend to get babied, which the average car does not.
I think it depends on the owner. i know 2 people that have porsches and they both drive them like they are meant to and one is their daily driver.
Are these new car quality build problems? If so, these numbers do not surprise me.
None of our three recent GM cars had any issues as delivered.
Long term, the only problems I recall are a software update on the G8, and the battery went bad on the same car after about four years. Seems like the wife's Torrent had one of the rear door lock actuators replaced.
For that matter, the '04 Jaguar was flawless as delivered, and the only problems over time have been a rattly seat belt tensioner and a lazy fuel quantity sender, both replaced at no cost.
When you look at the new Cadillac offerings, the Camaro, the Corvette, and the new lines of econoboxes, it looks like the General is going to be a force to be reckoned with again.
None of our three recent GM cars had any issues as delivered.
Long term, the only problems I recall are a software update on the G8, and the battery went bad on the same car after about four years. Seems like the wife's Torrent had one of the rear door lock actuators replaced.
For that matter, the '04 Jaguar was flawless as delivered, and the only problems over time have been a rattly seat belt tensioner and a lazy fuel quantity sender, both replaced at no cost.
When you look at the new Cadillac offerings, the Camaro, the Corvette, and the new lines of econoboxes, it looks like the General is going to be a force to be reckoned with again.
Originally Posted By: dishdude
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/06/19/jd-power-initial-quality-survey-gm-ford/2437115/
"GM has the best quality of any corporation in industry," says Dave Sargent, J.D. Power's vice president of global automotive. It shows how fast a company with a flawed quality reputation can turn things around. "People were alleging their quality was so bad they deserved to go out of business."
I wonder how much they paid this guy to say that.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/06/19/jd-power-initial-quality-survey-gm-ford/2437115/
"GM has the best quality of any corporation in industry," says Dave Sargent, J.D. Power's vice president of global automotive. It shows how fast a company with a flawed quality reputation can turn things around. "People were alleging their quality was so bad they deserved to go out of business."
I wonder how much they paid this guy to say that.
Originally Posted By: RamFan
While I think it's great to try and analyze and quantify reliability I believe these lists to be a little useless without more info. Sure GMC may only have 90 issues per 100 vehicles, but what are those 90 issues?
Not much just catastrophic engine/driveline/chassis failures. No big deal....
Toyotas were plagued with burned out glovebox light bulbs.
While I think it's great to try and analyze and quantify reliability I believe these lists to be a little useless without more info. Sure GMC may only have 90 issues per 100 vehicles, but what are those 90 issues?
Not much just catastrophic engine/driveline/chassis failures. No big deal....
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: dishdude
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/06/19/jd-power-initial-quality-survey-gm-ford/2437115/
"GM has the best quality of any corporation in industry," says Dave Sargent, J.D. Power's vice president of global automotive. It shows how fast a company with a flawed quality reputation can turn things around. "People were alleging their quality was so bad they deserved to go out of business."
I wonder how much they paid this guy to say that.
+1 I've never found Consumer's Reports far off in their reader's derived assesments of vehicle quality. Killing the messenger these days is very popular.
Originally Posted By: dishdude
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/06/19/jd-power-initial-quality-survey-gm-ford/2437115/
"GM has the best quality of any corporation in industry," says Dave Sargent, J.D. Power's vice president of global automotive. It shows how fast a company with a flawed quality reputation can turn things around. "People were alleging their quality was so bad they deserved to go out of business."
I wonder how much they paid this guy to say that.
+1 I've never found Consumer's Reports far off in their reader's derived assesments of vehicle quality. Killing the messenger these days is very popular.
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: RamFan
While I think it's great to try and analyze and quantify reliability I believe these lists to be a little useless without more info. Sure GMC may only have 90 issues per 100 vehicles, but what are those 90 issues?
Not much just catastrophic engine/driveline/chassis failures. No big deal....
Toyotas were plagued with burned out glovebox light bulbs.
True or not, that's funny.
By the same token, Toyota may have had that defect with accelerator pedals. Just one strike for the record, please, same overall impact on quality.
:lol:
Originally Posted By: RamFan
While I think it's great to try and analyze and quantify reliability I believe these lists to be a little useless without more info. Sure GMC may only have 90 issues per 100 vehicles, but what are those 90 issues?
Not much just catastrophic engine/driveline/chassis failures. No big deal....
True or not, that's funny.
By the same token, Toyota may have had that defect with accelerator pedals. Just one strike for the record, please, same overall impact on quality.
:lol:
Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Originally Posted By: rjundi
I have yet to own a bad car EVER in 25 years including ones with terrible reputations. (Jeep, Toyota, GM, Subaru, Honda, Acura, Renault(short term)
My wife has an 8yr/150k Legacy turbo which makes Consumer Reports used car to avoid list. The first issues and nothing extraordinary cropped up at 147k miles.
This is how I feel too, which is why I use forums and word of mouth before all this other trash you see from these sites like CR. It is as next to meaningless as it gets.
CR doesn't even verify that their respondents own the cars they are talking about! Virtually meaningless info. They assigned a bad rating to the Chrysler 300 before it was even available based on their own prejudicial feelings towards Chrysler.
I wouldn't ask my puppy to pee on a CR!
Originally Posted By: rjundi
I have yet to own a bad car EVER in 25 years including ones with terrible reputations. (Jeep, Toyota, GM, Subaru, Honda, Acura, Renault(short term)
My wife has an 8yr/150k Legacy turbo which makes Consumer Reports used car to avoid list. The first issues and nothing extraordinary cropped up at 147k miles.
This is how I feel too, which is why I use forums and word of mouth before all this other trash you see from these sites like CR. It is as next to meaningless as it gets.
CR doesn't even verify that their respondents own the cars they are talking about! Virtually meaningless info. They assigned a bad rating to the Chrysler 300 before it was even available based on their own prejudicial feelings towards Chrysler.
I wouldn't ask my puppy to pee on a CR!
Originally Posted By: guyonearth
Porsches don't get driven that much, compared to grocery-getter type cars. You'd have to look far and wide to find a 200k Porsche. They also tend to get babied, which the average car does not.
Incorrect, their are a lot of high mileage every day driven P cars out their. Go do an autotrader search, always a 300k mile 911 for sale.
Porsches don't get driven that much, compared to grocery-getter type cars. You'd have to look far and wide to find a 200k Porsche. They also tend to get babied, which the average car does not.
Incorrect, their are a lot of high mileage every day driven P cars out their. Go do an autotrader search, always a 300k mile 911 for sale.
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: RamFan
While I think it's great to try and analyze and quantify reliability I believe these lists to be a little useless without more info. Sure GMC may only have 90 issues per 100 vehicles, but what are those 90 issues?
Not much just catastrophic engine/driveline/chassis failures. No big deal....
Toyotas were plagued with burned out glovebox light bulbs.
You say and believe a lot of unsubstantiated things I've noticed. There's many high mileage GM vehicles that haven't experienced any catastrophic failures.
As far as Porsche, that's good for them, but let's seem the make several million cars at an affordable price point and get top quality rating.
Originally Posted By: RamFan
While I think it's great to try and analyze and quantify reliability I believe these lists to be a little useless without more info. Sure GMC may only have 90 issues per 100 vehicles, but what are those 90 issues?
Not much just catastrophic engine/driveline/chassis failures. No big deal....
You say and believe a lot of unsubstantiated things I've noticed. There's many high mileage GM vehicles that haven't experienced any catastrophic failures.
As far as Porsche, that's good for them, but let's seem the make several million cars at an affordable price point and get top quality rating.
Even at 80 problems in 100 cars it pretty horrid in first 90 days the survey covers.
I would be quite annoyed taking my car back in that period if loaner is not provider. I did 3 times for my Subaru WRX (bad tire(s) it turns out Bridgestone replaced entire set).
I would be quite annoyed taking my car back in that period if loaner is not provider. I did 3 times for my Subaru WRX (bad tire(s) it turns out Bridgestone replaced entire set).
Originally Posted By: mikered30
Originally Posted By: EType
More remarkable to me is that Scion is at the bottom.
They were virtually at the top if I remember correctly.
You never see a radical plummet like that in any performance table and with autos, it usually takes time for changes like in either direction to occur.
It is truly astounding!
The FR-S has major engine issues.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15577
Can you imagine the rhetoric if GM, Ford or Chrysler did that? Since it's Toyota, no one seems to mind.
Originally Posted By: EType
More remarkable to me is that Scion is at the bottom.
They were virtually at the top if I remember correctly.
You never see a radical plummet like that in any performance table and with autos, it usually takes time for changes like in either direction to occur.
It is truly astounding!
The FR-S has major engine issues.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15577
Can you imagine the rhetoric if GM, Ford or Chrysler did that? Since it's Toyota, no one seems to mind.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
You say and believe a lot of unsubstantiated things I've noticed. There's many high mileage GM vehicles that haven't experienced any catastrophic failures.
As far as Porsche, that's good for them, but let's seem the make several million cars at an affordable price point and get top quality rating.
Good point. Porsche is much larger than they used to be though, in the old days they were a very small mfgr.
BMW has also had issues with going from low volume to big numbers. it's a tough road to hoe..
You say and believe a lot of unsubstantiated things I've noticed. There's many high mileage GM vehicles that haven't experienced any catastrophic failures.
As far as Porsche, that's good for them, but let's seem the make several million cars at an affordable price point and get top quality rating.
Good point. Porsche is much larger than they used to be though, in the old days they were a very small mfgr.
BMW has also had issues with going from low volume to big numbers. it's a tough road to hoe..
JD Power data is questionable at best and fatally flawed in the worst case scenario.
Manufacturers MUST PAY JP POWER to be included in their surveys. Also they will not give specifics about how the data is arrived at in total. So we really have no hard points to refer to.
JD Power is FOR PROFIT...unlike CR.
Manufacturers MUST PAY JP POWER to be included in their surveys. Also they will not give specifics about how the data is arrived at in total. So we really have no hard points to refer to.
JD Power is FOR PROFIT...unlike CR.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Originally Posted By: morepwr
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Haha, there's one for the vocal anti GM crowd here.
Me? I like GM products. Always have. Never cared for their plasticy interiors, though. Unlike Ford and Chrysler, they were the only American company that could make a 4 speed automatic transaxle work.
I see this a lot in magazine articles and in places like here but I haven't been in a car made in the last 20 years that didn't have cheap plastic interiors. Every car and truck I see has a plastic dash with plastic knobs.
This, when I had our 03 CTS we drove an 03 Lexus and the wife who just came out of an 02 Jetta TDI could not believe how nice the CTS was as compared to the Jetta and the Lexus. I think some people have not sat in a new GM, heck my 98 Buick isn't really bad. Lots of folks ON THIS BOARD are stuck in the 90s, 80s and 70s. All I have is GM stuff. The ones I own now and in the past were better than the Nissan, VW and Honda that I owned. I have basically stopped arguing with people on this board about it. I drive what I like and I like GM stuff.
The GM car that screwed me over was a 2003.
Originally Posted By: morepwr
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Haha, there's one for the vocal anti GM crowd here.
Me? I like GM products. Always have. Never cared for their plasticy interiors, though. Unlike Ford and Chrysler, they were the only American company that could make a 4 speed automatic transaxle work.
I see this a lot in magazine articles and in places like here but I haven't been in a car made in the last 20 years that didn't have cheap plastic interiors. Every car and truck I see has a plastic dash with plastic knobs.
This, when I had our 03 CTS we drove an 03 Lexus and the wife who just came out of an 02 Jetta TDI could not believe how nice the CTS was as compared to the Jetta and the Lexus. I think some people have not sat in a new GM, heck my 98 Buick isn't really bad. Lots of folks ON THIS BOARD are stuck in the 90s, 80s and 70s. All I have is GM stuff. The ones I own now and in the past were better than the Nissan, VW and Honda that I owned. I have basically stopped arguing with people on this board about it. I drive what I like and I like GM stuff.
The GM car that screwed me over was a 2003.
I'm happy for GM and I'm glad they are employing a few people.
I just want to say that, as noted, this is in initial quality, not long term reliability. Who knows, maybe GM will have better reliability at 100K miles than anybody on the list.
A person's perception of initial quality can also vary.
Remember the three triple cars called the Mitsubishi Eclipse, the Plymouth Laser and the Eagle Talon? They were all the same cars (for the most part) with just a different badge on them. They were made in the same factory and you could have three different models if you had them running down the assembly line back-to-back-to-back. Yet the Mitsubishi Eclipse had a much better initial quality rating between these three brands because it was a Japanese "foreign" car and the Japanese had a better quality perception at that time. That drove Lee Iacocca crazy.
I just want to say that, as noted, this is in initial quality, not long term reliability. Who knows, maybe GM will have better reliability at 100K miles than anybody on the list.
A person's perception of initial quality can also vary.
Remember the three triple cars called the Mitsubishi Eclipse, the Plymouth Laser and the Eagle Talon? They were all the same cars (for the most part) with just a different badge on them. They were made in the same factory and you could have three different models if you had them running down the assembly line back-to-back-to-back. Yet the Mitsubishi Eclipse had a much better initial quality rating between these three brands because it was a Japanese "foreign" car and the Japanese had a better quality perception at that time. That drove Lee Iacocca crazy.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
CR doesn't even verify that their respondents own the cars they are talking about! Virtually meaningless info. They assigned a bad rating to the Chrysler 300 before it was even available based on their own prejudicial feelings towards Chrysler.
I wouldn't ask my puppy to pee on a CR!
Have any links about the claimed 300 issue? I'd be interested in reading them. A lot of the claims about CR bias are overblown internet echo chamber issues. They don't do everything "right," but no auto outlet does.
It's interesting people would bash CR when the JD info seems just as suspect to me.
How many people do you think fill out CR surveys and lie about cars they don't own? I would guess it isn't very common.
Same deal with the JD survey. How do you know the respondent is telling the truth about how many problems they had?
Consumer Reports is just another data point to consider when comparing cars, same as JD. Even if you don't like the reliability ratings there's still a lot of interesting info and auto tests they do.
Back on the original topic,
It's some interesting info. GM is definitely making some cars I like and would consider on my next purchase. I wonder how consistent the rankings are? Do some brands stay consistent or is there always significant changes in ratings for various brands?
CR doesn't even verify that their respondents own the cars they are talking about! Virtually meaningless info. They assigned a bad rating to the Chrysler 300 before it was even available based on their own prejudicial feelings towards Chrysler.
I wouldn't ask my puppy to pee on a CR!
Have any links about the claimed 300 issue? I'd be interested in reading them. A lot of the claims about CR bias are overblown internet echo chamber issues. They don't do everything "right," but no auto outlet does.
It's interesting people would bash CR when the JD info seems just as suspect to me.
How many people do you think fill out CR surveys and lie about cars they don't own? I would guess it isn't very common.
Same deal with the JD survey. How do you know the respondent is telling the truth about how many problems they had?
Consumer Reports is just another data point to consider when comparing cars, same as JD. Even if you don't like the reliability ratings there's still a lot of interesting info and auto tests they do.
Back on the original topic,
It's some interesting info. GM is definitely making some cars I like and would consider on my next purchase. I wonder how consistent the rankings are? Do some brands stay consistent or is there always significant changes in ratings for various brands?
Originally Posted By: stephen9666
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
CR doesn't even verify that their respondents own the cars they are talking about! Virtually meaningless info. They assigned a bad rating to the Chrysler 300 before it was even available based on their own prejudicial feelings towards Chrysler.
I wouldn't ask my puppy to pee on a CR!
Have any links about the claimed 300 issue? I'd be interested in reading them. A lot of the claims about CR bias are overblown internet echo chamber issues. They don't do everything "right," but no auto outlet does.
It's interesting people would bash CR when the JD info seems just as suspect to me.
How many people do you think fill out CR surveys and lie about cars they don't own? I would guess it isn't very common.
Same deal with the JD survey. How do you know the respondent is telling the truth about how many problems they had?
Consumer Reports is just another data point to consider when comparing cars, same as JD. Even if you don't like the reliability ratings there's still a lot of interesting info and auto tests they do.
Back on the original topic,
It's some interesting info. GM is definitely making some cars I like and would consider on my next purchase. I wonder how consistent the rankings are? Do some brands stay consistent or is there always significant changes in ratings for various brands?
JD Power surveys are sent to people who actually OWN their cars. We've gotten a few of them in the mail regarding specific cars, like my mom's equinox.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
CR doesn't even verify that their respondents own the cars they are talking about! Virtually meaningless info. They assigned a bad rating to the Chrysler 300 before it was even available based on their own prejudicial feelings towards Chrysler.
I wouldn't ask my puppy to pee on a CR!
Have any links about the claimed 300 issue? I'd be interested in reading them. A lot of the claims about CR bias are overblown internet echo chamber issues. They don't do everything "right," but no auto outlet does.
It's interesting people would bash CR when the JD info seems just as suspect to me.
How many people do you think fill out CR surveys and lie about cars they don't own? I would guess it isn't very common.
Same deal with the JD survey. How do you know the respondent is telling the truth about how many problems they had?
Consumer Reports is just another data point to consider when comparing cars, same as JD. Even if you don't like the reliability ratings there's still a lot of interesting info and auto tests they do.
Back on the original topic,
It's some interesting info. GM is definitely making some cars I like and would consider on my next purchase. I wonder how consistent the rankings are? Do some brands stay consistent or is there always significant changes in ratings for various brands?
JD Power surveys are sent to people who actually OWN their cars. We've gotten a few of them in the mail regarding specific cars, like my mom's equinox.
Originally Posted By: Nick R
JD Power surveys are sent to people who actually OWN their cars. We've gotten a few of them in the mail regarding specific cars, like my mom's equinox.
I'm aware of that. But again, if you want to raise questions about the CR surveys, you can raise similar questions about the JD surveys.
How do we know people are telling the "truth" about the number of problems on the JD surveys? Some buyers could be mad and overstate the number of problems and some buyers could be trying to convince themselves they made the right choice and understate the number of problems.
Do I think lots of people are lying on the surveys? No. But I don't think a lot of people are probably lying on CR surveys, either.
Again, from my perspective they're all just data points to consider. None of these types of surveys are the end-all-be-all final word. Gather the data, consider it, but buy the car you want after you test drive them and consider your personal needs.
JD Power surveys are sent to people who actually OWN their cars. We've gotten a few of them in the mail regarding specific cars, like my mom's equinox.
I'm aware of that. But again, if you want to raise questions about the CR surveys, you can raise similar questions about the JD surveys.
How do we know people are telling the "truth" about the number of problems on the JD surveys? Some buyers could be mad and overstate the number of problems and some buyers could be trying to convince themselves they made the right choice and understate the number of problems.
Do I think lots of people are lying on the surveys? No. But I don't think a lot of people are probably lying on CR surveys, either.
Again, from my perspective they're all just data points to consider. None of these types of surveys are the end-all-be-all final word. Gather the data, consider it, but buy the car you want after you test drive them and consider your personal needs.
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