GM makes big move up in J.D. Power quality survey

[GMBoy]

Let me put my thoughts out there, as a GM employee, on surveys.

We read and keep up on ALL of them. JD POWER, CR, and others along with dealer warranty data. We use the data to make improvements via engineering changes or plant processes. So they do help us in ways to make better products.

However - CR is the lowest of the bunch and I really agree with others that they are extremely flawed and hard to prove truth. JD Power is only initial---but most problems are detected the first few months and few thousand miles anyhow. So, GM moving up the ladder with JDP proves some good things are happening.

My feelings are that these surveys are good for press releases and advertising and guiding improvements in the building of cars but they are not the holy grail.

The only thing that will change GM in the minds of people who had bad luck in the past with a GM model is WORD OF MOUTH. I have said over and over on here that GM has really made huge improvements all around (I see them daily and am responsible myself for some great progress on our fullsize SUV) but that it will take YEARS to remove a tarnished image.

My future forecast is that within the next 5-10 years the current great lineup of cars and trucks GM is making will prove long term reliability and quality and FINALLY allow GM to be excepted as a great auto maker and, dare I say, knock Toyota off it's undeserved "do no wrong" pedestal.

 

[SteveSRT8]

And seriously that is some kind of great revelation? I bet we could play "3 or 4 Doubt Raising Questions" on just about any source of automobile reliability info!

Please note I did not mention JD Power. And I completely agree that each of us should make their own choices regarding anything we spend our hard-earned money on!

 

[mechanicx]

There is something funny about Consumer Reports rating system and also even their reliability ratings and that goes not just for cars but anything more complex than say a car battery or mattress.

CR really does have an Asian brand bias and it's readers do to. They have a reliability perception for Japanese makes that becomes reality and vice versa for domestics. Even for things like walk behind lawn mowers, their ratings just like with cars, don't make a lot of sense or seem to jive with reality. And the consumer reported reliability don't make sense even for lawn mowers. If you believe it, then Troybuilt makes more reliable mowers than Snapper, Toro and Honda. I don't believe it. There's too many models and differences to say that.

I'd like to believe more red circles and less black circles means more reliability, but does it really and how much better? And what were the nature and extent of the problems beyond calling it vaguely "body integrity" or "cooling system". It's not very clear at all.

CR ranking and recommendations don't even always make sense going by their own data they provide, let alone real world experience. Doesn't make sense, I don't give it too much weight.

And I don't choose a vehicle based just on expected reliability, but on thing slike ride and handling and feel. This where publications give to much credit to some foreign brands, or at least insert their preference judgments too far.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
There is something funny about Consumer Reports rating system and also even their reliability ratings and that goes not just for cars but anything more complex than say a car battery or mattress.

CR really does have an Asian brand bias and it's readers do to. They have a reliability perception for Japanese makes that becomes reality and vice versa for domestics. Even for things like walk behind lawn mowers, their ratings just like with cars, don't make a lot of sense or seem to jive with reality. And the consumer reported reliability don't make sense even for lawn mowers. If you believe it, then Troybuilt makes more reliable mowers than Snapper, Toro and Honda. I don't believe it. There's too many models and differences to say that.

I'd like to believe more red circles and less black circles means more reliability, but does it really and how much better? And what were the nature and extent of the problems beyond calling it vaguely "body integrity" or "cooling system". It's not very clear at all.


Meh, some of the CR hating gets a little over the top here. You have to remember that CR is aimed at average drivers or shoppers, not nerds like BITOG members. BITOG'ers likely want different things in their cars than joe-commuter. That's part of the reason they don't get into too many specifics, I think.

As far as the reliability of specific part systems, they do now offer an additional subscriber service that gets into more specifics of each system. In the case of my Hyundai, they're pretty much spot on, with worse reliability ratings for the braking and fuel systems, which is where most of my problems have occurred.

I guess here's just one example to think about. Here are the 6 top rated small cars (auto trans) by CR:
-Subaru Imprezza
-Hyundai Elentra
-VW Jetta hybrid
-Mazda 3
-Ford Focus
-Chevy Cruze
All of these models have scores that aren't too far apart, so they're all rated pretty well by CR based on their road tests. So, American cars are scored near the top in cases where they're good models. Note that the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla didn't top the Cruze of Focus. I think many people here would agree that the Forcus and Cruze are good models.

Some of the alleged examples of Asian bias people sometimes bring up are things like the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac vibe or Chevy Prism/Toyota Corolla. The claim is that the Japanese branded models were rated higher, because they're Japanese. But in reality, that isn't true. More in this thread if you're interested in reading it:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2744332

So, if you don't "like" CR, then don't read it. But the bashing and claims of bias here get a little old and a little over the top sometimes, and often come from a handful of argumentative members. If you want to criticize the self-reported reliability ratings of CR, than many of the same criticisms can be said for the JD rating in this thread.

Again, I don't know why some people wanted to turn this thread into an attempt to bash CR, when the thread was originally not even about that topic.

Oh well, everyone have a good day. I think I'm going to go work in the garage.

 

[mechanicx]

But even that top 6 list is stupid especially for non-enthusiast. They have the Cruze near the bottom. By their own ratings the Jetta and Ford are less reliable. And the top 3 should be rated lower than the bottom 3 if anything.

They do this with the ATS and other great Domestic products, always rate some Asian vehicle or maybe an Audi or BMW higher. Even at least one major auto magazine rated the ATS 1st in a comparo.

CR was brought up I think by someone "bashing" JD Power and saying CR is a better source.

And if people want to criticize CR they can and don't have to stop reading it and just be quiet.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But even that top 6 list is stupid especially for non-enthusiast. They have the Cruze near the bottom. By their own ratings the Jetta and Ford are less reliable. And the top 3 should be rated lower than the bottom 3 if anything.


I'm not trying to be rude, buy these comments don't really make much sense to me.

This is just the top 6. The Cruze (specifically the Eco model) isn't near the bottom, it's one of the top-rated cars. I don't see any way it's "stupid" for a non-enthusiast. Nor do I see why you say "the top 3 should be rated lower than the bottom 3 if anything."

Just to point out one of the reasons the Cruze and Focus aren't rated higher than the Imprezza and Hyundai, for example: CR noted both the Cruze and Focus have smaller rear seats, while the Imprezza and Hyundai have bigger back seats. Those are the types of reasons the Subaru and Hyundai edged out the Focus and Cruze, but again, not by a ton. Those seem like valid testing points to me.

One thing to take into account. It doesn't appear the numerical scores CR gives cars are based on their driving and overall test scores compared to other models. It doesn't take into account the consumer reliability ratings. The reliability info is used for their annual "most/least reliable" columns and their "recommended" models, but not the base scores and tests for the vehicles.

CR and their auto testing is just another data point to consider when buying a new vehicle. They have lots info available to look at and driving tests you can watch online that I think are useful for a lot of car buyers.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx


And if people want to criticize CR they can and don't have to stop reading it and just be quiet.


Well, if you enjoy reading things so you can complain about them on the internet, more power to you.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666

One thing to take into account. It doesn't appear the numerical scores CR gives cars are based on their driving and overall test scores compared to other models. It doesn't take into account the consumer reliability ratings. The reliability info is used for their annual "most/least reliable" columns and their "recommended" models, but not the base scores and tests for the vehicles.


D'oh, I made a typo here and the editing time has passed.

It doesn't appear the numerical scores CR gives cars take into account the reliability ratings. From reading on the website, the numerical scores are based on their driving and overall test scores compared to other models.

The reliability info is used for their annual "most/least reliable" columns and their "recommended" models, but not the base scores and tests for the vehicles.

 

[mechanicx]

You can defend CR all you want but their ratings are subjective and the criteria gets pulled out of the air or is at least inconsistent, other than finding some reason or another to rank usually some Asian model at the top and domestics at the bottom no matter how nice they have to admit the domestics are. They sometimes do not recommend models based on predicted reliability, and other times ignore reliability.

If the Hyundai Elantra score is road test based, that's where most others would say it comes up short. Bottom line is even in the recommended list they put the domestics near the bottom and some imports at the top and give dubious reasoning for it.

And people don't read CR to complain about it. The point is they are objecting to people who claim CR is unquestionable and defend it. You can't make a lot of sense of CR's ranking, other than blindly following their number 1 ranking of best buy rating for a product. It seems that CR is loosely parroting other major auto media recommendations like Car&Driver. But that's often just garbage in garbage out too.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
You can defend CR all you want but their ratings are subjective and the criteria gets pulled out of the air or is at least inconsistent

And people don't read CR to complain about it. The point is they are objecting to people who claim CR is unquestionable and defend it. You can't make a lot of sense of CR's ranking, other than blindly following their number 1 ranking of best buy rating for a product. It seems that CR is loosely parroting other major auto media recommendations like Car&Driver. But that's often just garbage in garbage out too.


Well, all ratings are subjective, I'm definitely not arguing that's not the case. But CR does things to try to kick influence from the auto companies and advertisers. They actually buy all the cars they test and they don't have advertising. I'm not sure I'd call many of their conclusions "dubious." If you look at the scores and say "well, tighter handling is more important to me than a big back seat," then you're free to choose models based on your own criteria.

Car and Driver, Motortrend or any others are subjective, too. I actually don't think anyone in this thread is claiming CR is "right" about everything and can't be questioned. But some of the criticism here can go over the top. It's just another set of info to consider and it's aimed at regular people. And I don't think CR is "parroting" media outlets, as CR is different in some major ways.

I don't agree that you can't "make a lot of sense of the rankings." I find them easy to understand and they point out some of the strengths and weaknesses of each model and go into more specifics in the video road tests.

Take from them what you will...

Anyway, have a good day. I'm probably done thinking about this for today.

 

[eljefino]

CR is only one piece of the puzzle. I do wonder if someone buys their mag then has a problem, and the mechanic blames it on local conditions/ salty roads/ bad gas/ potholes/etc to make the owner feel better... does that get reported to CR or "hushed" because it's "not the car's fault it ate ball joints in 40k miles."

CR's testing techniques are not peer reviewed nor do they meet any respected engineering standards. In a word, they're home brewed. It's useful to see how they stack up against Motor Trend etc in 0-60 times-- usually pretty close. I do like the idea of them buying cars off the lot and not getting "ringers" from the manufacturer.

Finally, CR recommends only other CR resources when buying a car, not to get on google and find a real time owner forum etc. A non-profit should step aside per its mission statement if it's truly interested in its members/ subscribers.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: whip

Can you imagine the rhetoric if GM, Ford or Chrysler did that? Since it's Toyota, no one seems to mind.


GM once had 51% of the US auto market...they had to screw a lot of people for many decades to end up in Chapter 11. GM didn't just screw people over...they made it an art form and then unleashed a unionized lemming workforce to claim that anyone who didn't buy GM was unpatriotic. Really disgusting when you think about it.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy

My future forecast is that within the next 5-10 years the current great lineup of cars and trucks GM is making will prove long term reliability and quality and FINALLY allow GM to be excepted as a great auto maker and, dare I say, knock Toyota off it's undeserved "do no wrong" pedestal.



The real question is will they ever pay back all of the money they took from the US taxpayers?

don't forget the high number Baby-boomers will be retired in 10 years and GM cars really do not hold much favor with the younger generation. So your prediction while understandable is probably not too accurate.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
CR is only one piece of the puzzle. I do wonder if someone buys their mag then has a problem, and the mechanic blames it on local conditions/ salty roads/ bad gas/ potholes/etc to make the owner feel better... does that get reported to CR or "hushed" because it's "not the car's fault it ate ball joints in 40k miles."

CR's testing techniques are not peer reviewed nor do they meet any respected engineering standards. In a word, they're home brewed. It's useful to see how they stack up against Motor Trend etc in 0-60 times-- usually pretty close. I do like the idea of them buying cars off the lot and not getting "ringers" from the manufacturer.

Finally, CR recommends only other CR resources when buying a car, not to get on google and find a real time owner forum etc. A non-profit should step aside per its mission statement if it's truly interested in its members/ subscribers.


All great points. Glad to see someone who doesn't need to write a book in their defense!

All the rags have their bias, they're all run by humans.

CR will still remain at the BOTTOM of any list I make of automotive evaluation resources as they are highly subjective despite their cheerleaders' long winded posts...

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


All great points. Glad to see someone who doesn't need to write a book in their defense!

All the rags have their bias, they're all run by humans.

CR will still remain at the BOTTOM of any list I make of automotive evaluation resources as they are highly subjective despite their cheerleaders' long winded posts...


Sigh....

I don't believe I was "cheerleading." As I said before, CR isn't perfect, no outlet is, and it's just one place for people to consult before making a purchase.

I was simply trying to provide some actual info such as the rankings showing some domestic models are highly rated by CR. If that makes me long-winded, so be it, I guess.

So many claims here (about CR or otherwise) are made without any additional info to back them up or are just internet echo chamber rumors/comments being repeated.

Anyway, I encourage people to consult as many resources as possible before making a big purchase. CR is just one people can consult.

 

[FXjohn]

pretty sad when you see a bunch of folks all butthurt about a car company not going bankrupt.

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: FXjohn
pretty sad when you see a bunch of folks all butthurt about a car company not going bankrupt.


GM filed bankruptcy in 2009. What else ya got?

 

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
pretty sad when you see a bunch of folks all butthurt about a car company not going bankrupt.


GM filed bankruptcy in 2009. What else ya got?


many people have a job because chrysler, GM and even ford took govt money. quit whining

 

[Azeem]

Originally Posted By: FXjohn
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
pretty sad when you see a bunch of folks all butthurt about a car company not going bankrupt.


GM filed bankruptcy in 2009. What else ya got?


many people have a job because chrysler, GM and even ford took govt money. quit whining


I'm One of them.

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: FXjohn
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
pretty sad when you see a bunch of folks all butthurt about a car company not going bankrupt.


GM filed bankruptcy in 2009. What else ya got?


many people have a job because chrysler, GM and even ford took govt money. quit whining


I didn't whine. I just pointed out you have no clue what you're talking about.