GM Long-life vs. MB 229.5 vs. BMW LL

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JHZR2

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Hi,

Can anyone tell me the differences between the long life specs of GM/Saab, MB (229.5), and BMW long-life? I assume that ACEA A3 is the main consideration, taking into account the stability of the viscosity and some wear factors. But there has to be one main central chemistry or parameter that sets these oils apart from regular old SL.

I believe they may have an additive package more indicative of a HDEO, yet only typically a CF or no 'C' rating.

I think ethyl corp used to have a pdf file that outlined the different specs. I consulted it when studying the difference between MB228.x and 229.x specs. But now Im more concerned with the GM spec, and it seems to me that they all must be relatively close in design, but would like some reassurance. Maybe a VOA or M1 0w-40 and saab 0w-30 vs GC would shed some light, as then all the specs are covered?

Thanks for your help,

JMH
 
Not exactly and not only A3 criterias because there are 2 long life oils for GM": LL A-025 and B-025 and 2 oils for BMW: LL-01 and LL-01FE. But in general you are very close to the truth.

http://www.oilclub.ru/upload/docs/Vectra_oil_retailers.pdf

http://www.vectra.opel.com/brand_sites/vectra/launch/uk/en/downloads/pdfs/Customerinfo_oil.pdf

Interesting that three (in fact may be only one given the same house) oils meet both LL A-025 and B-025:

Castrol SLX GM 0W-30
Veedol Syntron GM 0W-30
BP Visco 7000 0W-30

a.m. oils also meet A3/B3/B4-02, as well as MB 229.5 and VW.502.00/505.00/503.01 that would seem contradicting to A-025 idea of low viscosity oils.

Apparently in order to meet both A-025 and B-025 BP/Castrol made some kind of a compromise: a border HT/HS = 3.50. This may only mean that any oil like M1 0W-40 that also meets B-025 can be used without any fear for out of quarantee service. I would go even further: any 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-40 A3/B3, BMW-01, MB 229.3/229.5, VW 502.00/505.00/503.01 would be fine. I have not yet met a crasy who had used 30K or 50K km oil intervals.
 
I can provide a little information about oils meeting the GM spec, but nothing about the spec itself (two GM customer service managers refused to give it to me). Keep in mind that this information is now 18 months old, so I'm sure more oils have been added.

The "one main central chemistry or parameter that sets these oils apart from regular old SL" is that they're all Group IV (or IV+V?) full syns. And I believe you're right about them all having diesel-style additive packages.

We have several M1 0W-40 & GC VOAs here, along with at least one Saab 0W-30 VOA.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Eiron:
The "one main central chemistry or parameter that sets these oils apart from regular old SL" is that they're all Group IV (or IV+V?) full syns.

Just FYI, SLX LongTec meets both GM-LL-A-025 and GM-LL-B-025, it has a weaker additive package than the original SLX (GC) which did not meet the GM specs, and if you trust this safety data sheet , it's not even a full synthetic.
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I think that Highly Refined Mineral Oil is the additive pack carrier oil .

Pete ,

Look at the magnesium used in the Long Tec . I think this makes the difference and gets the oil to the LL-B along with the fact the Long Tec uses a different type calcium than the German Castrol 0w-30 . It is not a weak additive pack , just a completely different formula to obtain a different goal...... It would be nice to know the TBN .
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CALCIUM 1919
MAGNESIUM 531
PHOSPHORUS 813
ZINC 1041

[ August 11, 2004, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by Motorbike:
Look at the magnesium used in the Long Tec . I think this makes the difference and gets the oil to the LL-B . It is not a weak additive pack , just a different formula to obtain a different goal...... IMO
smile.gif
It would be nice to know the TBN .

CALCIUM 1919
MAGNESIUM 531
PHOSPHORUS 813
ZINC 1041


Then your oil will be perfect for GM too
grin.gif
cheers.gif

quote:

Originally posted by Motorbike:
This is the Bike oil I use . It's a Ester/Pao formulation .

Moly 85
Magnesium 461
Calcium 2153
Phosphorus 1187
Zinc 1321


http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000180
 
quote:

Originally posted by Motorbike:
I think that Highly Refined Mineral Oil is the additive pack carrier oil .

That's certainly a good possibility. But then, wouldn't the original SLX be using something similar as an additive carrier pack? Yet, there is no mention of mineral oil in the original SLX (GC) safety data sheet. That's what concerns me.

quote:

Long Tec uses a different type calcium than the German Castrol 0w-30

Sorry if I sound picky
smile.gif
, but I'm just very curious - how is the calcium different and how do you know it is different?

quote:

It would be nice to know the TBN .
smile.gif


The TBN is 10.7 as per my VOA done by Blackstone. It's a relatively high number, but then again, it's not the initial value the counts but rather how quickly it gets depleted throught its life inside an engine. Assuming the additive package is strong, the TBN should deplete slowly. However, I suspect that higher additive package may cause more deposits inside an engine and that's why Castrol decided to reduce the add pack in SLX LongTec. Some manufacturers (mainly Toyota) were reporting sludge buildup when using the original SLX at 20k km interval (standard Toyota OCI in Europe). Too early to tell if SLX LongTec solved that issue though. I'm anxiously awaiting to see the UOA of my LongTec.
smile.gif
 
quote:

Originally posted by Quattro Pete:
[QB]


Sorry if I sound picky
smile.gif
, but I'm just very curious - how is the calcium different and how do you know it is different?

,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.


The GC uses calcium sulphonate vs the alkyl salicylate calcium of the LongTec .

If one was to read MoleKules descriptions about how the newer overbased sulphonate also has anti-wear capabilities it in part helps to understand gas vs diesel engine oil formulating needs especially with reduced phos these days .

This was sent to me by an esteemed member here . I did not write this .

Calcium and magnesium are just counter ions used to form neutral salts of organic acids, which are the actual detergent compounds in the additive packages. The detergents themselves are proprietary and cannot easily be identified. Since the level of Ca and Mg can easily be measured by spectroscopy, they are often used as surrogates for the amount of detergent present in an oil.
Their presence tells you very little about the additive package composition.


That said , I truly wish I knew more but one thing is certain and that is not all magnesium nor calcium works the same or rather is the same . These additives are tools for the expert chemists to use and do not work alone in the newer formulas . The word synergisticly comes to mind like Mobil's Supersyn with very low phos . It's anti-wear comes from other additives working together .

Since most of us don't know how these additives " tools " exactly work the next best thing is to think of the fully formulated oil as a tool and to use the correct tool for the job at hand .

That is but one reason why I always thought of using a 15w-40 diesel oil in a smaller gasoline car engine was kind of like useing a pipe wrench on the wheel lugnuts . It will work but is it the best tool to use out of all the tools available ?

I think not , just one man's opinion and I will not debate on it as it's a never ending battle here on this forum and it's not a thick vs thin thing either . It's the type chemistry involved that serves these two different combustion engines needs/purposes
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I would think though that a modern fully synthetic that meets both GM-LL-A-025 and GM-LL-B-025 should be a fine motor oil . In fact I still have 6 gallons of the original Saab ELF 0w-30 that met those specs . It lasts a year in Mothers 4.6 Ford and how it's driven with ease
patriot.gif


[ August 12, 2004, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by Quattro Pete:
Just FYI, SLX LongTec meets both GM-LL-A-025 and GM-LL-B-025, it has a weaker additive package than the original SLX (GC) which did not meet the GM specs ...

I don't have my 18-month-old list of oils handy, but I don't remember seeing "SLX LongTec" listed. Was this oil out & GM-LL approved in January of '03? If only the original version of SLX was out at that time, & it wasn't GM-LL approved, then it's not included in the dozen oils I found. I know I've listed the oils here before, but I can't find the post(s) any longer.
dunno.gif


Admittedly, my PAO comment is not based on first-hand knowledge of each approved oil. Rather, it is supposition based on the knowledge that:
1) the two oils meeting the spec in the US at that time (Mobil 1 0W-40 & Saab OE 0W-30) were both PAO full syns, &
2) the ten Euro oils were all labeled as "fully synthetic," & others here have stated that Europe's stronger labeling laws prevent anything other than Group IV (& IV/V) oils being legally called full syn.

My apologies if my outdated info is confusing. Since I won't be buying any European-only oil while I'm living here in Colorado, I haven't updated my initial research. And, as you may have noticed from my previous posts, I'm not too fond of Castrol's duplicitous business practices. Even though I used Castrol products exclusively for 20 years, I don't expect to buy any of their motor oil for the foreseeable future.
frown.gif


Here's a little bit more of what I believe makes up the GM-LL-A-025 spec.
smile.gif
 
quote:

Originally posted by Eiron:
I don't have my 18-month-old list of oils handy, but I don't remember seeing "SLX LongTec" listed. Was this oil out & GM-LL approved in January of '03?

Nope. SLX LongTec became available on the market towards the end of 2003.

quote:

others here have stated that Europe's stronger labeling laws prevent anything other than Group IV (& IV/V) oils being legally called full syn.

That's what I thought too, but apparently Castrol is pulling the same crap in Europe as they are in the US. Their Magnatec 5w-40, which they call "fully synthetic" is supposedly a Group III from what I've read on BITOG.

quote:

And, as you may have noticed from my previous posts, I'm not too fond of Castrol's duplicitous business practices.

Yeah, me too. I don't know what got over me to go ahead and try the SLX LongTec. I probably should have just stock with good ole M1 0w-40. Well, we'll see soon enough I guess.
cheers.gif
 
Quattro Pete,

I dug up my info from 29.Jan.03, & here are all the oils I could find (& verify) that met GM-LL-A-025 at that time:
code:



BP Visco 7000 GM 0W-30 ACEA A3

Castrol Formula SLX GM 0W-30 ACEA A3

Elf Evolution SXR 0W-30 ACEA A5

Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL GM 0W-30 ACEA A1

Mobil 1 0W-40 ACEA A3

Shell Helix Ultra, G-A025 0W-30 ACEA A1

Veedol Syntron GM 0W-30 ACEA A3

Opel LongLife 0W-30 [no ACEA found]

Aral SuperTronic G 0W-30 ACEA A3

Saab Turbo Long-Life 0W-30 ACEA A5

Mobil SHC Formula LD 0W-30 ACEA A3

Esso Universal LD 0W-30 ACEA A3



Obviously, there's a fuel efficiency requirement built into the spec but no viscosity or HT/HS longevity requirement. Also, I seem to recall that some of these oils had multiple versions of the same thing, but with different "brand qualifiers" tacked onto the end of the name.

cheers.gif
 
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