General Motors Co. is in talks about a possible alliance with France’s leading car maker PSA Peugeot Citroen, a deal that could dwarf PSA’s partnerships with BMW, Mitsubishi Motors and Toyota
Washington Post article
Washington Post article
GM in alliance talks with Peugeot Citroen
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It would mirror my driveway! Plus, I'd love to see better coverage in the ACDelco catalog for my old Peugeot.
I saw this in the news late last night. It sounds really asymmetric to me; PSA could get a lot more out of such an arrangement than GM. Looking at both technological sophistication and global footprint, GM is in a much better position than PSA.
PSA does however have some excellent designs that really could be improved by GM powertrains. Access to the North American market for PSA has been discussed, and I'd love to see that if some of PSA's engineering deficiencies could be corrected with GM help.
To GM, it doesn't look like a great deal: aligning money-losing PSA operations in southern Europe with money-losing Opel operations in northern Europe. I suppose the idea is that PSA+GM could pit governments and labor unions in Germany and France against each other, with engineering, design, and production going to the countries who find the most ways to cut the respective operations' labor costs.
I saw this in the news late last night. It sounds really asymmetric to me; PSA could get a lot more out of such an arrangement than GM. Looking at both technological sophistication and global footprint, GM is in a much better position than PSA.
PSA does however have some excellent designs that really could be improved by GM powertrains. Access to the North American market for PSA has been discussed, and I'd love to see that if some of PSA's engineering deficiencies could be corrected with GM help.
To GM, it doesn't look like a great deal: aligning money-losing PSA operations in southern Europe with money-losing Opel operations in northern Europe. I suppose the idea is that PSA+GM could pit governments and labor unions in Germany and France against each other, with engineering, design, and production going to the countries who find the most ways to cut the respective operations' labor costs.
I certainly don't see any benefit to GM coming from this. Maybe they could also look at Fiat and,oh yes, Saab has recently been searchimg for ANYONE. Message to GM management: GET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER at Opel before any further escapades ! FWIW--Oldtommy
Maybe they could brand-engineer GM products for the European market and Peugeot/Citroen products for the US market. Also gain access to European made small diesels?
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: 2oldtommy
I certainly don't see any benefit to GM coming from this. Maybe they could also look at Fiat and,oh yes, Saab has recently been searchimg for ANYONE. Message to GM management: GET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER at Opel before any further escapades ! FWIW--Oldtommy
+1. They dumped saab, and now this?
Ill bet that saab did most of the legwork for all the turbo ecotec type engines out there now...
I certainly don't see any benefit to GM coming from this. Maybe they could also look at Fiat and,oh yes, Saab has recently been searchimg for ANYONE. Message to GM management: GET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER at Opel before any further escapades ! FWIW--Oldtommy
+1. They dumped saab, and now this?
Ill bet that saab did most of the legwork for all the turbo ecotec type engines out there now...
Originally Posted By: Brons2
Maybe they could brand-engineer GM products for the European market and Peugeot/Citroen products for the US market. Also gain access to European made small diesels?
It would be pretty awesome to have access to the Citroën DS3, C4, DS4, and C6, and the Peugeot 208 and 508 (wagon in particular).
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Ill bet that saab did most of the legwork for all the turbo ecotec type engines out there now...
I really don't think Saab was doing much engineering legwork lately at all. All the Saab-only technology in recent models came from outside suppliers.
Maybe they could brand-engineer GM products for the European market and Peugeot/Citroen products for the US market. Also gain access to European made small diesels?
It would be pretty awesome to have access to the Citroën DS3, C4, DS4, and C6, and the Peugeot 208 and 508 (wagon in particular).
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Ill bet that saab did most of the legwork for all the turbo ecotec type engines out there now...
I really don't think Saab was doing much engineering legwork lately at all. All the Saab-only technology in recent models came from outside suppliers.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: 2oldtommy
I certainly don't see any benefit to GM coming from this. Maybe they could also look at Fiat and,oh yes, Saab has recently been searchimg for ANYONE. Message to GM management: GET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER at Opel before any further escapades ! FWIW--Oldtommy
+1. They dumped saab, and now this?
This sounds more like the sort of deal that Renault and Nissan have, not so much like GM buying Saab outright.
Originally Posted By: 2oldtommy
I certainly don't see any benefit to GM coming from this. Maybe they could also look at Fiat and,oh yes, Saab has recently been searchimg for ANYONE. Message to GM management: GET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER at Opel before any further escapades ! FWIW--Oldtommy
+1. They dumped saab, and now this?
This sounds more like the sort of deal that Renault and Nissan have, not so much like GM buying Saab outright.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: 2oldtommy
I certainly don't see any benefit to GM coming from this. Maybe they could also look at Fiat and,oh yes, Saab has recently been searchimg for ANYONE. Message to GM management: GET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER at Opel before any further escapades ! FWIW--Oldtommy
+1. They dumped saab, and now this?
They're exploring the possibility of vehicle, component, and production cooperation, not a merger or some financial entanglement.
And it is compelled largely by both companies' troubles in Europe. Opel is bleeding money, and Peugeot is struggling against VW.
Originally Posted By: 2oldtommy
I certainly don't see any benefit to GM coming from this. Maybe they could also look at Fiat and,oh yes, Saab has recently been searchimg for ANYONE. Message to GM management: GET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER at Opel before any further escapades ! FWIW--Oldtommy
+1. They dumped saab, and now this?
They're exploring the possibility of vehicle, component, and production cooperation, not a merger or some financial entanglement.
And it is compelled largely by both companies' troubles in Europe. Opel is bleeding money, and Peugeot is struggling against VW.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Stu_Rock
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Ill bet that saab did most of the legwork for all the turbo ecotec type engines out there now...
I really don't think Saab was doing much engineering legwork lately at all. All the Saab-only technology in recent models came from outside suppliers.
As I understand it, for my 04 9-3, Saab took the ecotec blocks as-was, but did their own engineering job of turbocharging them, which included a custom head design.
Why wouldnt that knowledge and experience play into the DI turbocharged ecotecs in the cruze, regal, etc?
Maybe Im wrong, but Id have to think that some learning was shared. I was kind of under the impression that small, efficient, FWD turbo cars as a core competency was one of the reasons GM took stake in Saab to begin with.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Ill bet that saab did most of the legwork for all the turbo ecotec type engines out there now...
I really don't think Saab was doing much engineering legwork lately at all. All the Saab-only technology in recent models came from outside suppliers.
As I understand it, for my 04 9-3, Saab took the ecotec blocks as-was, but did their own engineering job of turbocharging them, which included a custom head design.
Why wouldnt that knowledge and experience play into the DI turbocharged ecotecs in the cruze, regal, etc?
Maybe Im wrong, but Id have to think that some learning was shared. I was kind of under the impression that small, efficient, FWD turbo cars as a core competency was one of the reasons GM took stake in Saab to begin with.
Peugeot has a lot of GREAT knowledge and know how when it comes to designing and engineering small cars and small diesel engines. They make some of the best small diesel passenger car engines bar none.
I'd personally love to see a few of the great Peugeot and Citroen cars available here in the USA after a long absence.
I was pretty lucky to have actually been in and driven in both brands back in the late 80s and early 90s When we had a
Peugeot / CX Auto (Citroen Importer) dealer in West Chester, PA. I believe it was called "Smith Auto" since gone out of business of course.
I'd personally love to see a few of the great Peugeot and Citroen cars available here in the USA after a long absence.
I was pretty lucky to have actually been in and driven in both brands back in the late 80s and early 90s When we had a
Peugeot / CX Auto (Citroen Importer) dealer in West Chester, PA. I believe it was called "Smith Auto" since gone out of business of course.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Stu_Rock
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Ill bet that saab did most of the legwork for all the turbo ecotec type engines out there now...
I really don't think Saab was doing much engineering legwork lately at all. All the Saab-only technology in recent models came from outside suppliers.
As I understand it, for my 04 9-3, Saab took the ecotec blocks as-was, but did their own engineering job of turbocharging them, which included a custom head design.
Why wouldnt that knowledge and experience play into the DI turbocharged ecotecs in the cruze, regal, etc?
Maybe Im wrong, but Id have to think that some learning was shared. I was kind of under the impression that small, efficient, FWD turbo cars as a core competency was one of the reasons GM took stake in Saab to begin with.
Cruze is good old port injection. The Regal is indeed DI.
I don't see what GM would get out of the deal.
Originally Posted By: Stu_Rock
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Ill bet that saab did most of the legwork for all the turbo ecotec type engines out there now...
I really don't think Saab was doing much engineering legwork lately at all. All the Saab-only technology in recent models came from outside suppliers.
As I understand it, for my 04 9-3, Saab took the ecotec blocks as-was, but did their own engineering job of turbocharging them, which included a custom head design.
Why wouldnt that knowledge and experience play into the DI turbocharged ecotecs in the cruze, regal, etc?
Maybe Im wrong, but Id have to think that some learning was shared. I was kind of under the impression that small, efficient, FWD turbo cars as a core competency was one of the reasons GM took stake in Saab to begin with.
Cruze is good old port injection. The Regal is indeed DI.
I don't see what GM would get out of the deal.
Sell GM to PSA and use the money to help pay back the national debt.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
As I understand it, for my 04 9-3, Saab took the ecotec blocks as-was, but did their own engineering job of turbocharging them, which included a custom head design.
Why wouldnt that knowledge and experience play into the DI turbocharged ecotecs in the cruze, regal, etc?
It would take some double-checking with those who are in the know, but I think that LK9 engine had a "new" (that is, updated) block at the time of introduction as well, and that the entire project was collaborative between Rüsselsheim, Pontiac (city, not brand), and Trollhättan. Maybe the latter did the head.
But that project was going on more than a decade ago. It sounds like Trollhättan was moving to the periphery in the last several years. One could make the case that GM had sucked them dry, but I think the rest of GM would have been able to get by without them anyway. Even though it doesn't always look like it from the consumer POV, lots of smart people work at that company.
Böy, thërë ärë löts öf ümläüts ïn my pösts ïn thïs thrëäd.
As I understand it, for my 04 9-3, Saab took the ecotec blocks as-was, but did their own engineering job of turbocharging them, which included a custom head design.
Why wouldnt that knowledge and experience play into the DI turbocharged ecotecs in the cruze, regal, etc?
It would take some double-checking with those who are in the know, but I think that LK9 engine had a "new" (that is, updated) block at the time of introduction as well, and that the entire project was collaborative between Rüsselsheim, Pontiac (city, not brand), and Trollhättan. Maybe the latter did the head.
But that project was going on more than a decade ago. It sounds like Trollhättan was moving to the periphery in the last several years. One could make the case that GM had sucked them dry, but I think the rest of GM would have been able to get by without them anyway. Even though it doesn't always look like it from the consumer POV, lots of smart people work at that company.
Böy, thërë ärë löts öf ümläüts ïn my pösts ïn thïs thrëäd.
Originally Posted By: 91344George
Peugeot has a lot of GREAT knowledge and know how when it comes to designing and engineering small cars and small diesel engines. They make some of the best small diesel passenger car engines bar none.
I'd personally love to see a few of the great Peugeot and Citroen cars available here in the USA after a long absence.
I'm mostly with you, but even in diesels I don't think PSA has the chops to cut it in North America. Maybe they do, but they certainly don't have the money to make it happen.
Peugeot has a lot of GREAT knowledge and know how when it comes to designing and engineering small cars and small diesel engines. They make some of the best small diesel passenger car engines bar none.
I'd personally love to see a few of the great Peugeot and Citroen cars available here in the USA after a long absence.
I'm mostly with you, but even in diesels I don't think PSA has the chops to cut it in North America. Maybe they do, but they certainly don't have the money to make it happen.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Stu_Rock
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
As I understand it, for my 04 9-3, Saab took the ecotec blocks as-was, but did their own engineering job of turbocharging them, which included a custom head design.
Why wouldnt that knowledge and experience play into the DI turbocharged ecotecs in the cruze, regal, etc?
It would take some double-checking with those who are in the know, but I think that LK9 engine had a "new" (that is, updated) block at the time of introduction as well, and that the entire project was collaborative between Rüsselsheim, Pontiac (city, not brand), and Trollhättan. Maybe the latter did the head.
But that project was going on more than a decade ago. It sounds like Trollhättan was moving to the periphery in the last several years. One could make the case that GM had sucked them dry, but I think the rest of GM would have been able to get by without them anyway. Even though it doesn't always look like it from the consumer POV, lots of smart people work at that company.
Böy, thërë ärë löts öf ümläüts ïn my pösts ïn thïs thrëäd.
Good stuff. Not saying GM isnt full of bright folks. Just figured it may be like the Daimler takeover of Chrysler... Get a few things, suck them dry, then get rid.
I might be way off... But the story was that the Saab 2.0t engines were highly modified variants of the alloy 2.2L engine modified fully by Saab and designed for better fuel economy than the existing super/turbocharged GM equivalents of the time. The main thing was a grabbing of some of the key experience and design aspects (turbo engine design, some controls stuff that they were ahead on as far back as the early 1980s), etc.
Standard means of a large company getting technology...
I have a 9-3, and wish that GM had not dumped saab. But my story is based upon my reading back to 2004. Take it with a grain of salt.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
As I understand it, for my 04 9-3, Saab took the ecotec blocks as-was, but did their own engineering job of turbocharging them, which included a custom head design.
Why wouldnt that knowledge and experience play into the DI turbocharged ecotecs in the cruze, regal, etc?
It would take some double-checking with those who are in the know, but I think that LK9 engine had a "new" (that is, updated) block at the time of introduction as well, and that the entire project was collaborative between Rüsselsheim, Pontiac (city, not brand), and Trollhättan. Maybe the latter did the head.
But that project was going on more than a decade ago. It sounds like Trollhättan was moving to the periphery in the last several years. One could make the case that GM had sucked them dry, but I think the rest of GM would have been able to get by without them anyway. Even though it doesn't always look like it from the consumer POV, lots of smart people work at that company.
Böy, thërë ärë löts öf ümläüts ïn my pösts ïn thïs thrëäd.
Good stuff. Not saying GM isnt full of bright folks. Just figured it may be like the Daimler takeover of Chrysler... Get a few things, suck them dry, then get rid.
I might be way off... But the story was that the Saab 2.0t engines were highly modified variants of the alloy 2.2L engine modified fully by Saab and designed for better fuel economy than the existing super/turbocharged GM equivalents of the time. The main thing was a grabbing of some of the key experience and design aspects (turbo engine design, some controls stuff that they were ahead on as far back as the early 1980s), etc.
Standard means of a large company getting technology...
I have a 9-3, and wish that GM had not dumped saab. But my story is based upon my reading back to 2004. Take it with a grain of salt.
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