GM Bailout / Oshawa Closure

[IndyFan]

Originally Posted by Rolla07
Make them pay back the govt handouts they accepted. Thats what I say.


You can't alter the deal after it was already done. Unless you are Darth Vader, of course.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Sayjac
Originally Posted by dishdude
GM is doing what they need to do so they remain competitive and are prepared for the future. Keeping underutilized plants and producing cars no one wanted is what got them in trouble before.

GM can do no right with some people. The same people that do nothing but slam GM are now complaining because the cars they constantly bashed aren't selling and the plants that produce them need to close because no one is buying the cars they repeatedly told people not to buy aren't selling.
Point(s) well taken here. The OP is a long time GM basher on bitog in that ilk. And if memory serves banned at least once for repeatedly doing so along the same or similar line as topic.

And while this post in the "humor" section, 'IMO' humor or comedic value not the intention.

As point of reference, not a GM owner. I'm posting agreement with another member points and to that end providing context.

I'm no fan of GM that's for sure and I was always clear about that. I didn't get banned for not being a fan of GM and bashing them. I got banned for having a spat with another member that I took too far and that particular member complained and the mods decided to rule in his favour.

Furthermore if you look, I started this thread as humor, it turned into a discussion about what GM has done and while I said my piece about GM and what I believe is more of their shadiness I explained that it's rampant with a lot of corporations. If I was out to bash GM alone this wouldn't have been stated.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Imp4
Originally Posted by StevieC
Heck how was Toyota able to steal this market share from them and other auto-makers if they were doing what they should have been?

Toyota didn't steal marketshare from GM.
Toyota earned marketshare by building a better product that people wanted.

How is that any different?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Trav
For sure people don't want cars if all you offer them are ugly POS. The companies are driving the market in the way THEY want not what the consumer really wants.
New record, same old song and dance.


Exactly and then when their thinking fails they expect the tax payer to write a cheque to fix their mess and then ride off on golden parachutes into the sunset and close factories and lay off anyway.

 

[Imp4]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Imp4

Toyota didn't steal marketshare from GM.
Toyota earned marketshare by building a better product that people wanted.

How is that any different?

Are you serious?!?

I just don't have the will to provide links to the differences in definition.

Figure it out for yourself...

 

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by cjcride
If a government is going to give you a ton of money with no conditions attached is it not human nature to take the money?


Exactly my point! Government gave money without ANY conditions, I'd have set as a condition at least a lien against their real estate just to keep them honest.
The real culprit however, for publicly held companies, is the stock market. Here everything is done on a short term basis, there is no long term strategy as the shareholders are not looking at future gains, but only at immediate or short term ones. A corporation has, as a primary obligation, the interest of its shareholders and not its employees alas. Because of this the car companies and other manufacturers pushed for the NorthAmerican free trade deal with Mexico, they wanted to manufacture there and import the product duty free into the US & Canada, there was NO OTHER reason to include Mexico in the deal. You'll se the R & D done in the US or Canada (this employs few people) and all the manufacturing will be done in Mex.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It's just business. Everything changes. Products have life cycles. There is competition.
Companies have to reinvent themselves. You could say GM is reinventing themselves.
You grow or you go...
The big guys get rich if their company wins or loses.
I feel for the workers; it is much harder for them to reinvent themselves.
And those lost jobs do not account all the local support; restaurants, etc.
And the decimated tax base.

In 1991 CEO Stempel announced closing 21 plants and laying off 70,000 workers.
He got a big bonus that year.
The CEO of Mitsubisi (I think) commented, "If I had announced the loss of that many jobs mine would have been the 1st to go."
Or something like that.

 

[Leo99]

Should have let them go bankrupt.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
It's just business. Everything changes. Products have life cycles. There is competition.
Companies have to reinvent themselves. You could say GM is reinventing themselves.
You grow or you go...
The big guys get rich if their company wins or loses.
I feel for the workers; it is much harder for them to reinvent themselves.
And those lost jobs do not account all the local support; restaurants, etc.
And the decimated tax base.

In 1991 CEO Stempel announced closing 21 plants and laying off 70,000 workers.
He got a big bonus that year.
The CEO of Mitsubisi (I think) commented, "If I had announced the loss of that many jobs mine would have been the 1st to go."
Or something like that.

Then they shouldn't need government bailouts and they shouldn't make promises to folks they don't intend to keep. That's the problem. If they hadn't made promises and hadn't taken the money, then yes it's just business and well so be it. Problem is they did and they did.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted by Imp4

Just like the Cavalier was junky in comparison to Civic and Corolla.

And the GM's were all made at Lordstown.....


Had an 04 cavalier where the tail light was held on with one out of three stamped steel nuts. (You know, those awful things with just one thread.) Have reason to believe it was assembled that way.

Someone one here had a Vega where the speedometer cluster was held in with 2 out of 6 screws, again, from Lordstown. Though that could have been from back when they were speeding up the lines and making them do their thing over and over every 37 seconds.

In a chicken and egg thing, though, it makes me wonder if they always put their econoboxes in the same plant then sabotaged themselves with bean-counting and engineering compromises.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote
Should have let them go bankrupt.
Using that rationale as basis, Chrysler (now FCA) should have also suffered the same fate. And Ford would/should not have received 9 billion dollar US gov't line of credit and 5.9 billion loan from Energy Dept. in the same time frame. Not much of a leap imo to say things would be far far worse now had the big three not been helped out.

Just like Ford now dropping much of it's PC vehicle production, GM just doing what it must to stay competitive in the now.

 

[andyd]

It's just business. Yah that's what I was told one Monday morning as I was summarily laid off. 53 yrs old, 3 kids in college. The shock has only simmered down to bitterness in the 14 yrs since. It is the new business model that MBAs are taught. Lean,mean and just in time. Wanna make your bottom line look good? Easy, just lay people off. Except these are people who have a multiplier effect on the economy. The wages they earn contribute to the local economy way more than the big money and options paid to senior executives. My heart goes out to GMs rank and file. The execs get a golden parachute and go off to ruin another business.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by andyd
It's just business. Yah that's what I was told one Monday morning as I was summarily laid off. 53 yrs old, 3 kids in college. The shock has only simmered down to bitterness in the 14 yrs since. It is the new business model that MBAs are taught. Lean,mean and just in time. Wanna make your bottom line look good? Easy, just lay people off. Except these are people who have a multiplier effect on the economy. The wages they earn contribute to the local economy way more than the big money and options paid to senior executives. My heart goes out to GMs rank and file. The execs get a golden parachute and go off to ruin another business.

Well stated.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted by Rat407
GM can't sell a product if they don't market it. When I'm out with my diesel Cruze I get asked all the time if it is a diesel. Nobody has a clue. GM doesn't market the cars, just the trucks for the most part. What do you see at major sporting events. Trucks and SUV's. I have never seen a commercial for a diesel Cruze or the new Equinox so how do they expect to sell them.

Driver-less cars? Yeah right, more issues and broken vehicles on the road because of software issues. Just like computers, it isn't if it will crash, but when will it crash, hence all the online back up services. Heck our Suburban's Mylink hasn't worked correctly since day 1 and GM keeps saying they are working on a fix. It has been 2 years, how long does it take to fix it?

you have to have more than a 2 or 5 year horizon to believe in driver-less cars. It will happen. Personally I think it's 20-30 years out. As far as GM fixing some software issue....heck it took GM a decade to fix the head and intake manifold gasket issues. It's a GM problem, not a software problem.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted by andyd
It's just business. Yah that's what I was told one Monday morning as I was summarily laid off. 53 yrs old, 3 kids in college. The shock has only simmered down to bitterness in the 14 yrs since. It is the new business model that MBAs are taught. Lean,mean and just in time. Wanna make your bottom line look good? Easy, just lay people off. Except these are people who have a multiplier effect on the economy. The wages they earn contribute to the local economy way more than the big money and options paid to senior executives. My heart goes out to GMs rank and file. The execs get a golden parachute and go off to ruin another business.

you're still "bitter" 14 years after losing your job? Geez let it go. Losing a job is practically a part of everyone's life at some point. I've lost 2 in my career. I pickup and move on.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I want everyone to know, when I say "It's just business" I do not mean to be flippant.
Apologies...
I have seen plenty of people lose their livelihood due to corporate decisions and/or mistakes.
Upper management is safe; in many cases are rewarded.
The little guy gets the shaft and that's putting it nicely.

I was laid off after 17+ years at a high tech company; primarily due to politics.
I had to tell myself "It's just business."
In my case, I was OK from a money standpoint; others are certainly not so lucky.
I was fortunate to be picked up right away because of Silicon Valley opportunity and contacts.

Again, my sincere apologies to anyone offended by my post; that was not my intension.

 

[dishdude]

After reading through this thread, I have to say it was placed in the appropriate section on the forum. What a joke.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
I want everyone to know, when I say "It's just business" I do not mean to be flippant.
Apologies...
I have seen plenty of people lose their livelihood due to corporate decisions and/or mistakes.
Upper management is safe; in many cases are rewarded.
The little guy gets the shaft and that's putting it nicely.

I was laid off after 17+ years at a high tech company; primarily due to politics.
I had to tell myself "It's just business."
In my case, I was OK from a money standpoint; others are certainly not so lucky.
I was fortunate to be picked up right away because of Silicon Valley opportunity and contacts.

Again, my sincere apologies to anyone offended by my post; that was not my intension.

I don't think anyone took offence. And it is....just business. I have 15 years in with my present employer. If they fire me Monday morning, I'm not going to say I gave 15 years of my life to them. I'm going to say, they gave me 15 years of decent employment and be grateful for that. Flip it to a positive and move on.

 

[Andrew1972]

GM does want their pants down at the next industry shift like 2009. I feel for workers but they need cash to be a viable automaker not if but when we shift to electric cars.

 

[wwillson]

Lock time