Gear Oil-Borate vs Sulfur/phos

[widman]

I couldn't get the pics to post in the private reply to Bror, but it might be of general interest, so I'll repost here.

Yea, we had some arguments over pricing and filling of orders. They dropped the prices of their wholey owned distribuitor here on Texaco products and raised mine on Chevron by $50 to $200 per drum.
So I gave up negociating with them and am importing the MAX-SYN based products that were available at my other supplier, who added the borate product line.

Anyway, to your question, You don't mention whether you are looking at Delo Gear 85W-140 or RPM Universal 85W-140. The Delo Gear is an excelent product, ISOSYN, borate, etc. The RPM is traditional Sufur/Phos.
Given the option, I always prefer the Borate product. Much more protection, longer life (since the additive product does not depend on chamical reactions that over time no longer adhere. This is especially true on any gears or bearings that have bronze or other soft metals where the sulfur/phos coating peels off part of the surface.
Here you can see the wear on a bronze gear that had Esso Spartan sulfur/phos ISO 220 gear oil. The black/grey is where the addive was still on the surface. Note the high wear metals on the UOA.

Here is the UOA

[ August 25, 2005, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: widman ]

 

[MolaKule]

Widman,

Is this the Potassium Borate or the Amide Borate Ester?

Most EP packages contain the S-P and some borate as well.

The borate works well at lower temps while the S-P kicks-in at the higher temps.

 

[widman]

I think it is the Potassium Borate that is used. In the UAO above they were supposed to have used the borate product (Ultra Gear ISO 220), but hadn't yet put it in because they wanted to use up the old stuff. Next sample should be much better.

 

[bruce381]

The 2 problems with the chevron borate syetem is water contamination leaching out the borate and formiing upon dry off a hard crystal at the bearing seal surface and then abrading the seal and forming leaks so not a good idea where water can be an issue.

Also the borate does not do well bye itself as far a shock loading so it needs a Sulfur additives like LZ ANGLAMOL added for shock protection.
One thing I like is the HIGH TBN that the borate will give allowing long gear oil/box life a great additive and gear oil. One other thing the borate works better in a thinner oil than S/P chemistry One of the inventors of this told me that thicker oils tended to "slow" the borate from reacting with the metal surface and tests showed better results with lower vis oils I think
Bruce

 

[Bror Jace]

OK widman, NOW I can see the UOA.

Thanks for your input. I'll try to get over to that distributor next week. I'm also interested in trying out Delo400 0w30 this winter.

Sorry they are being such tools to you.

bruce381, thanks for the specifics. The roto-tiller application is not too severe. But we just had to replace the seals in the rear diff. The thing sits (mostly) and then gets run only 2-3 hours each year.

However, I'll also be using this same stuff in the front (auger) diffy of our Ariens snowblower ... and that could see some moisture contamination. I'll have to keep an eye on it.

--- Bror Jace

 

[widman]

I've heard about the possible water problem, but have never seen it in practice, even where we are using it in the speed reducer connected directly to steam turbines, where there is risk. We keep looking for it, but so far haven't seen it.

On the viscosity comment, I've used to replace Meropa 680, reducing wear metals from 700 ppm in 2600 hours to 15 ppm in 10000 hours.

 

[bruce381]

quote:

---

Originally posted by widman:
I've heard about the possible water problem, but have never seen it in practice, even where we are using it in the speed reducer connected directly to steam turbines, where there is risk. We keep looking for it, but so far haven't seen it.

On the viscosity comment, I've used to replace Meropa 680, reducing wear metals from 700 ppm in 2600 hours to 15 ppm in 10000 hours.

---

My comment on seal problems is from inital work I saw 20 years ago. I do like this borate/sulfur system and did not mean to imply that trace water is/maybe still a problem but testing was with oil that contained as I remember 3-5% water that is a lot and in a steam turbine application perhaps high temps keep any water from entraning in the gear oil and or seals to keep out water are all in good shape. Also higher vis oils are still good at reducing wear metal with borate but borate ALONE had some shock loading problems that is why current products have a sulfur olephin in them NOT a pure borate alone system. I always thought that the Chevron borate additive made a great long life, low wear oil that would and still will rival any synthetic high dollar oil. As to working better in thinner oils that maybe a plus to make more "fuel" efficent oils what it was is a ISO 68 oil offered the same wear protection as a ISO 220 oil but the thinner oil allowed the gear box to operate at a higher efficencey.

bruce CLS

 

[widman]

I see a 10C to 40C lower temp with it as well, which means less viscosity loss. (And energy savings.

 

[bruce381]

Yes less friction means less heat rise a very good system as I said.
bruce