GDI may be getting Gasoline Particulate Filter (GP

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F) Looks like some changes may be coming. Paragraph #3 sounds like the technology is immature. "—a solution that would add to the cost of the already more costly GDI engine itself." "Port Fuel Injection (PFI) engines, on the other hand, have no trouble in meeting the limits, although the number of particles emitted varies with driving behavior." http://urls.ht/3Ea
 
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I have no problem with it if they can lean burn and get better fuel economy. Even better if they can use urea injection instead of particulate filter for better reliability and durability.
 
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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I have no problem with it if they can lean burn and get better fuel economy. Even better if they can use urea injection instead of particulate filter for better reliability and durability.
I don't believe the particulate filter will solve the high NOX levels that plague lean burn modes. For that, you're just going to have to tell the EPA to stop being so stupid and realize that a car that gets 55MPG (Honda Civic with lean burn) is much, much, much less of a polluter than a Ford Excursion V10 (which was a low emissions vehicle!)
 

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My guess would be an overall NO to urea, since they (the vehicle manufacturers) probably correctly surmise that their average customer pretty much won't want to pay for it. I guess there really is no free lunch when it comes to getting something for nothing (more miles per gallon for no increase in cost)
 
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Looks like the main "issue" -such as it is- only involves meeting the EU emissions standards. My MS3 has always emitted a bit of soot- heck, after an HPDE the rear fascia looks like that of a diesel powered car. Big deal- that's why I have a wash bucket, car wash soap, and a microfiber wash mitt. That said, some of the comments after the article are quite entertaining.
 
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Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I have no problem with it if they can lean burn and get better fuel economy. Even better if they can use urea injection instead of particulate filter for better reliability and durability.
I don't believe the particulate filter will solve the high NOX levels that plague lean burn modes. For that, you're just going to have to tell the EPA to stop being so stupid and realize that a car that gets 55MPG (Honda Civic with lean burn) is much, much, much less of a polluter than a Ford Excursion V10 (which was a low emissions vehicle!)
Indeed, percentage emission is so silly when you can just run a big engine to dilute it, at the expense of fuel economy. My conspiracy theory is this has nothing to do with emission but to protect big engine vehicle sales and protectionism (domestic have better big vehicle sales than foreign).
 

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Originally Posted By: MCompact
Looks like the main "issue" -such as it is- only involves meeting the EU emissions standards. My MS3 has always emitted a bit of soot- heck, after an HPDE the rear fascia looks like that of a diesel powered car. Big deal- that's why I have a wash bucket, car wash soap, and a microfiber wash mitt. That said, some of the comments after the article are quite entertaining.
I have to ask if your car is tuned properly and does it in fact pass periodic emissions testing? Some states do not have emissions testing, like KY for example: "While Kentucky did adopt a vehicle emissions testing program for three northern counties in 1999, the requirement ended in late 2005 with an emergency regulation signed by Governor Ernie Fletcher." "The governor cited improved quality of air and the potential to use other methods of reducing air pollutants as the reason for the program's end." Apparently, elevated pollution and increased attendant disease rates do not matter to some.
 
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In the Diesel world, urea injection is NOT for particulate control, its for NOx reduction. Now granted, its all kinda connected- the engine management profiles that lower particulates tend to increase NOx, so if you have another way to fight NOx it gives you a tool to lower particulates... just not directly. Another advantage is that it does work in tandem with particulate filtering because it a) releases free oxygen that facilitates particulate burning in the DPF, and b) raises downstream EGT so that the DPF runs hotter and burns itself clean under a bigger portion of the load cycle so (theoretically) fewer regen cycles are needed. All that should pretty much apply to GDI as well- after all, GDI is sorta sneaking up on running a spark ignition engine in a diesel cycle. And burning hydrocarbons produce the same exhaust chemistry... except that diesels inherently have more air dilution in their exhaust flow than gasoline engines.
 
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definitely an idea. I would also like to see them cure the valve deposit issue that plaques many DI Motors as well. Can altering the fuel in some way help? Obviously no one will change fuel for the masses like this, but Oxygenating the fuel has helped in other areas, maybe they can alter the chemistry of gasoline to create less of well Everything? Guess not huh? Jeff
 
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Originally Posted By: Ed_T
I have to ask if your car is tuned properly and does it in fact pass periodic emissions testing? Some states do not have emissions testing, like KY for example: "While Kentucky did adopt a vehicle emissions testing program for three northern counties in 1999, the requirement ended in late 2005 with an emergency regulation signed by Governor Ernie Fletcher." "The governor cited improved quality of air and the potential to use other methods of reducing air pollutants as the reason for the program's end." Apparently, elevated pollution and increased attendant disease rates do not matter to some.
Tuned properly? Well, I haven't had a CEL since the thermostat went south a couple of years ago. My two mods-a Mazdaspeed Intake and a Hypertech tune- are even CARB approved. And yes, no periodic emissions testing- thankfully. That said, I find your concern for my vehicle as well as my personal health to be quite touching.
 
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Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Looks like the main "issue" -such as it is- only involves meeting the EU emissions standards. My MS3 has always emitted a bit of soot- heck, after an HPDE the rear fascia looks like that of a diesel powered car. Big deal- that's why I have a wash bucket, car wash soap, and a microfiber wash mitt. That said, some of the comments after the article are quite entertaining.
I have to ask if your car is tuned properly and does it in fact pass periodic emissions testing? Some states do not have emissions testing, like KY for example: "While Kentucky did adopt a vehicle emissions testing program for three northern counties in 1999, the requirement ended in late 2005 with an emergency regulation signed by Governor Ernie Fletcher." "The governor cited improved quality of air and the potential to use other methods of reducing air pollutants as the reason for the program's end." Apparently, elevated pollution and increased attendant disease rates do not matter to some.
And the evidence that that is now happening in those countys is????
 
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Just more improvements to a work in process. Its almost like DI is going through the same type of growing pains the port injection went through. Ford themselves don't deny issues related to Di use.
Quote:
2013 study by Ford researchers on GDI particulates, is that direct injection of fuel into the combustion cylinder risks liquid fuel impingement onto the piston and cylinder surfaces and inhomogeneous air fuel mixing; consequentially PM formation is higher than in conventional PFI gasoline engines.
The answer to the DI problem seems to be in a hybrid type fuel system. Bosch has been working on one for some time as i understand it.
Quote:
As described in a paper published in MTZ on the development of the 1.8L TFSI EA888 Gen3 variant, the dual injection system opens up new levels of freedom for engine applications; mixture formation can be carried out by a combination of up to three direct injection events and the indirect injection
For now one solution would be to flag DI engine vehicles in the inspection data base and require an additional opacity test for them. If they have been tampered with they must be rejected and repaired and possibly retro fitted with some sort of particle filter. Chip tuning must be made illegal and if caught the car must be removed from the road until it is put back in OE condition and the owners fined heavily. When the car built it is certified to be in emissions compliance, chip tuning is not not subjected to the same rigorous testing. Basically the car is no longer in compliance and an outlaw on the road because it no longer has a valid emissions compliance certification. In Germany when a car is certified it receives whats called an ABE (Allgemeine Betriebserlaubnis) anything you do to the car that can effect its handling, braking, safety or emissions in any way without a certification makes the vehicles own original OE ABE null and void. IMHO We desperately need this sort of law here. Before anyone goes off the deep end and starts with oh great more regulation these are just some the benefits. Parts that can effect the vehicles safety like brakes, rotors, suspension parts, steering parts, tires, lighting, wheels, body parts, etc if not OE must carry a ABE of their own. Meaning they are certified to provide the same level of performance as OE and the vehicle can be safely operated at the speeds listed on the cars title and was original certified for. Insurance companies don't have a loophole because you used an aftermarket wheel for example. You get paid the insurance company themselves go after the wheel manufacturer for selling a non compliance part with a ABE. Its a win win for everyone and a much safer way of keeping cars running with better parts. Just an early morning rant. I will wait for the spinners to get worked up in a lather. LOL hide Edit: For clarification. By chip tuning i don't mean commercial tuning that has been done by reputable manufactures and are certified. I mean the tune at home hand held units for manipulating the ecm at home with sometimes questionable files produced by god know who.
 
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Originally Posted By: spackard
This isn't just to get the carbon off the intake valves, then?
No. The unreasonable greenies believe that GDI engine "roll coal" like the old diesels, apparently. They have no understanding of anything in the real world, no understanding of how engines work and don't understand that people outside of academia can't really afford all this garbage. But they are an expert on saving the world!!!!!!!!
 
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The more I read about VAG's issues and band-aid fixes, the more I'm convinced that they need to have their collective head examined. It sounds like the root cause of the particulate emissions is a half-baked analysis of the injection and combustion events. The GCC article mentioned liquid fuel collecting on the piston - if that's actually happening, then it should have been predicted before the first prototype engine was even built.
 

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Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Looks like the main "issue" -such as it is- only involves meeting the EU emissions standards. My MS3 has always emitted a bit of soot- heck, after an HPDE the rear fascia looks like that of a diesel powered car. Big deal- that's why I have a wash bucket, car wash soap, and a microfiber wash mitt. That said, some of the comments after the article are quite entertaining.
I have to ask if your car is tuned properly and does it in fact pass periodic emissions testing? Some states do not have emissions testing, like KY for example: "While Kentucky did adopt a vehicle emissions testing program for three northern counties in 1999, the requirement ended in late 2005 with an emergency regulation signed by Governor Ernie Fletcher." "The governor cited improved quality of air and the potential to use other methods of reducing air pollutants as the reason for the program's end." Apparently, elevated pollution and increased attendant disease rates do not matter to some.
And the evidence that that is now happening in those countys is????
Look for the irony.
 
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Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
The more I read about VAG's issues and band-aid fixes, the more I'm convinced that they need to have their collective head examined. It sounds like the root cause of the particulate emissions is a half-baked analysis of the injection and combustion events. The GCC article mentioned liquid fuel collecting on the piston - if that's actually happening, then it should have been predicted before the first prototype engine was even built.
Im sure the evidence was there, and they STILL WENT FORWARD AND BUILT IT. Thats what I dont get. As brilliant as some people are that design this stuff. All comes down to money. They saved probably 2 cents per engine to eliminate a part that the engineer said it needed. I dont blame just VAG group, most manufactures have DI now, they are have the same issues, some just take longer than others. Jeff
 
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Who knows it might become a new fad. New You Tube video..Rolling coal with your DI gas engine. LOL JK It all seems a bit extreme but Ford did admit there is an issue in 2013 and they have been using it since before that and continue to use it. I would bet there is a lot of ongoing conversations at the motor companies right now, they are sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think it could become an uncomfortable situation for them, they are one new emission regulation (possibly being enacted by some real fruitcake like the one terrorizing the coal industry) away from having to redesign almost every engine in the fleet to some extent. First these stupid CAFE numbers force the companies to use all sorts of technology to meet these numbers then kicks them in the balls because it might have too many emission particles. Its lunacy run amok. JMHO
 
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Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Im sure the evidence was there, and they STILL WENT FORWARD AND BUILT IT. Thats what I dont get. As brilliant as some people are that design this stuff. All comes down to money. They saved probably 2 cents per engine to eliminate a part that the engineer said it needed. I dont blame just VAG group, most manufactures have DI now, they are have the same issues, some just take longer than others. Jeff
I'm thinking either lack of swirl in the combustion chamber or poor injector design is what's going on. I don't know what kind of injector pressures VAG is using, but I'd be shocked if it's anything close to what diesels run. It's not that complicated to get good fuel atomization... but when you design a nozzle that's subject to erosion (not saying that's necessarily what's happening - just throwing out one possibility) you can't count on a decent service life. But yeah... at the end of the day, I'd guarantee that it came down to a cost/risk calculation, and the cost side won.
 
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I don't get it. How is it that the engine is supposedly more efficent with DI yet has larger particulate emissions? Poor swirl / poor atomization, seems to me like its the same as not getting a good burn. I don't get why DI makes more power. More responsive I get. Well, sorta, since port injection isn't exactly TBI (in terms of distance from injector to valve). It must hold some edge else it wouldn't be put forth.
 
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