Fuel System Cleaners ... all are Dexron III?

[Bror Jace]

I was on a car-brand-specific forum and the issue of fuel injector cleaners came up. Someone who thought they were very useful made a number of technical comments about them which I believe are incorrect. I asked him which brand(s) he referred to and this is what he said:

"All fuel injector cleaner contains is Dexron III ATF and a small amount of alcohol with other chemicals and additives to hide what it really is. When fuel injector cleaner first came out Buick bought a lot of it, since it worked, to try and find out what it contained. And ATF was what they came up with as the main ingredient and it worked because of the detergents
contained in the fluid."

"I was told that under strict confidentiality so if no one hears from me in a couple of days then STP's hitmen have already kidnapped me and dumped
my body."

"I was told about the ATF by a person who has been working on automobiles since 1973, received his automotive degree in 1978, has attained his
masters degree, owned and now leases out his shop, has taught automotive systems technology for almost 10 years and is on the ASE board. I trust every word he says as he helped in implementing the OBD II emissions standards for NC. I never said they were JUST ATF but that is the main ingredient in most fuel injector cleaners."

I tried to tell this person that there are many different types of cleaners including ester-based as well as many which contain no alcohol but use a petroleum-derived solvent like naptha, etc ... but he's sticking to his guns that they are primarily ATF + alcohol.

Now, it is NOT my intention to make fun of this otherwise helpful individual

but I'd love to see some of the more learned members of this forum comment in general on the various chemistry used in the various types of modern fuel system cleaners.

--- Bror Jace

 

[Pablo]

crack smoking continues despite the known hazards....

 

[novadude]

 

[MolaKule]

These Dudes are not only sniffing crack, they're smokin' paper-soaked ATF.


Here are some facts:
1. Most fuel system/injector cleaners are made of low-boiling point solvents in a light oil (oil is approx. = 2 cSt). Some of the higher tier cleaners use esters or natural vegetable oils (Schaeffer's Soy, etc) as the carrier or "top" oil. What we mean by top oil is that they add the oil as a lubricant for the top of the engine's Combustion Chamber, as in UCL. Some esters act as UCL's in the upper CC.

2. It would be ridiculous and costly to add ATF to some solvents; it simply is not economically feasible to do so. In addition, ATF adds ASH to the combustion chamber deposits.

3. Some cleaner formulations use alcohol, some do not. I prefer to NOT use it since some diesel fuel injectors and pumps cannot tolerate alcohol and it's attraction to water.

4. ATF does contain detergents and dispersants, but in very low levels. But these detergents are NOT solvents, they are simply light surface cleaners or special surfactants. Many individuals are confused about solvents verses detergents; detergents are special oil soluble soaps. Low boiling point solvents and detergents are two ENTIRELY different chemical compounds.

[ July 29, 2004, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[Bror Jace]

Um, Pablominator? I was kinda hoping for more specific responses. I intend to (eventually) supply him with a link to this thread and I'd like BITOGers to post somewhat more ... um, persuasive comments including some technical detail.

And novadude, you're just encouraging him!

--- Bror Jace

 

[Jelly]

News to me...the fuel system cleaner I just used contains sixty to seventy percent kerosene and thirty to forty percent polyether amine (solvent). That's it!

Bror,

Why don't you show this guy some MSDS sheets of both Dexron III fluids and fuel system cleaners? I believe that's the only way for you to PROVE to this guy that they are not one in the same.

[ July 29, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Jelly ]

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

MoleKule, thank you for the excellent technical explaination.

Bror Jace, if that person claims that fuel system cleaner and Dexron III are practically the same, ask him to try fuel system cleaner in his transmission instead of ATF and see how it works out.

 

[Bror Jace]

T-Keith: "It seems that this information comes from general confusion based on the old myth that adding ATF to your oil works as a flush. Kind of like the game where you take a large group of people and tell the first person something and as it's passed from person to person it's slowly changed into something completely different."

The "Telephone Game." Yes, I thought the same thing. I was under the impression (until my Sophmore year at ole BITOG University

) that ATF was loaded with detergents. This myth seems to be especially prevalent in automotive circles.

The improvement some people claim they experienced by using ATFs in fuel or through a vacuum line may be the stuff acting as an effective "top lube."

Jelly, I had mentioned MSDS sheets and CAS numbers to this guy before, but I think he's satisfied with his current answer and I hadn't done enough digging on my own to really show/explain where to (reliably) get that info.

Hopefully, if he reads this thread, he'll realize that knowledgeable people often get ahead of themselves, over-generalize, etc ... and end-up passing along bad info.

--- Bror Jace

 

[Bror Jace]

Ha!

Titanium Alloy, I hadn't thought of that!!

--- Bror Jace

 

[TC]

"These Dudes are not only sniffing crack, they're smokin' paper-soaked ATF."
MolaKule: Suggesting this guy's on crack?!!! I find that comment to not only be inaccurate, but a bit offensive. I was thinking perhaps hash, maybe even PCP. A certain mushroom occasionally found in the Mojave Desert also feeds such ATF illusions. But crack? Well, such a comment is downright uncalled for!

"MYTH: Adding a quart of ATF the day before an oil change will clean your engine. ATF added to the motor oil will clean the engine due to the high levels of detergent in ATF." "FACT: ATF does not contain detergent chemistry. ATF does contain dispersants, which have properties similar to detergents. But ATF is not formulated to withstand the combustion environment inside the engine." http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp

You won't find much ATF in these fuel injection cleaners:
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.go...stem+&+Air+Intake&type=cleaner,+fuel+inj/carb

Tranny fluid is typically 87-89% lubricating oil, and only 11-13% additives including detergents/dispersants (link below). Wouldn't it be better to simply add the portion of the 11-13% that's D/D (assuming these are even appropriate D&Ds for a fuel system!), and skip the other 87-89% that's oil? The additive firms are a bit more creative in their formulations than that mechanic suspects...
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:LSQgBv9yV20J:seweb1.phillips66.com/hes%255CMSDS.nsf/MSDSID/US775079/%24file/775079.pdf+automatic+transmission+fluid+material+safety+data+sheet& hl=en]http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:LSQgBv9yV20J:seweb1.phillips66.com/hes%255CMSDS.nsf/MSDSID/US775079/%24file/775079.pdf+automatic+transmission+fluid+material+safety+data+ sheet&hl=en

Typical ATF non-lube oil components (links below):
-Solvent naphtha, medium aliphatic -Naphthenic Petroluem Oil 1-5%
-N-Nonane 0.5%
-Boronated substituted succinimide 1-5%
-Polymethacrylate 1-5%
-Camel urine 8%

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cach...ission+fluid+material+safety+data+sheet&hl=en
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cach...ission+fluid+material+safety+data+sheet&hl=en

[ July 29, 2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[brianl703]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TC:
-Camel urine 8%

---

What's so special about camel urine? Wouldn't horse urine work? It'd be cheaper and easier to procure, I would think.

 

[MolaKule]

CAS No. NTP Trade Secret Proprietary Boronated substituted succinimide (1.0 - 5.0) Dispersant, AW agent

64742547 Hydrotreated Heavy Paraffinic Distillate 5 mg/m3 (m5 mg/m3 (60.0 - 100.0) Higher Viscosity Base Oil


64742558 Hydrotreated light paraffinic petroleum distillate 5 mg/m3 (m5 mg/m3 (10.0 - 30.0) Lower Viscosity Base Oil


64742536 Naphthenic Petroluem Oil 5 mg/m3 (m5 mg/m3 (1.0 - 5.0%) Additive Solvent


50867555 Polymethacrylate (1.0 - 5.0%) Viscosity Index Improver, thickener

What they do not show are the friction plate/band material Friction-Modifiers; very closely held ingredients!

Also not shown is the S-P package.

Some formulators still add metallic detergents at various levels, depending on the formulator/blender.

Now, do you really want all this stuff entering the combustion chamber?

Camel Urine 8%? Dye Replacement!

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by brianl703:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TC:
-Camel urine 8%

---

What's so special about camel urine? Wouldn't horse urine work? It'd be cheaper and easier to procure, I would think.

---

It would take a lot more horse urine because it isn't as concentrated.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by XS650:
It would take a lot more horse urine because it isn't as concentrated.

---

Limit the amount of water the horses are allowed to drink and that problem would be solved.

At least until PETA gets involved...

 

[Pablo]

Sorry I was using a sublimely ridiculous metaphorical analogy....in a case where I should have said:

a) wait for MolaKule's excellent answer
b) it should be obvious to even the most peripheral car person that fuel system cleaners don't contain any ATF in substantial qty, purely by quick sensory (smell, visual, feel - skip the taste part) input. Most are solvent based. Period.
c) ATF has some qty of non-volatile additives....compounds and elements that serve no purpose in a fuel system cleaner, and in fact may be harmful via MORE deposits.

 

[T-Keith]

Add the fact the ATF and fuel system cleaners have two hugely different purposes so naturally it would make sense that they would contain hugely different ingredients.

Even though the guy swears that this info comes directly from an expert, it seems that this information comes from general confusion based on the old myth that adding ATF to your oil works as a flush. Kind of like the game where you take a large group of people and tell the first person something and as it's passed from person to person it's slowly changed into something completely different.

-T

 

[Gary Allan]

Err ..note the dates on the guy's alleged friends automotive credentials. You are all obviously way too young.


ATF was a FACTORY recommended OIL additive in late 60s and some 70s SBC. This was a factory cure for lifter tap. The "before the oil change" add was probably effective since it probably thinned the oil out substantially ..but obviously has no use TODAY with the variety of products that will suspend just about anything in the engine (for better or worse).


ATF doesn't add any ash to the combustion chamber. At least none that hangs around. It combusts cleanly and completely at cylinder temps. If enough is used ..the exhaust manifold will be down to the cast metal as well. I'll qualify the "cleanly". It DOES produce a massive white cloud ..but the combustion exposed interior of the engine does NOT retain any residue.

Discovery- leaking vacuum modulator (you don't know what one of them is either) ..linked to ONE runner on V8 engine. Pull heads ..7 carbon crudded pistons ..one perfectly clean. Guess which one?

I've done this on many ..many carbed and injected engines (sensored and otherwise). You can say anything that you choose to about your "knowledge" ..but you can't possibly say that it has any basis in experience.

Now there have been some harmful side effects of using ATF as a combustion chamber cleaner ..but the same effect could be realized with GM top engine cleaner (another 70s thingie) or plain water. If the alleged engine has so much carbon that a big enough chunk breaks loose ....(valves etc.)

This was fairly common knowlege (but not commonly done) in the 60s and 70s by knowledgable mechanics. It totally fell out of vogue when injection became "common" and mechanics turned into "technicians" and routinely went to a school ( I btw- went to one such school - which is where I learned of this technique).

I know ..I know. I'm the "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthers Court"

[ July 30, 2004, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[brianl703]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
GM top engine cleaner

---

How does this product differ from B12 Chemtool or Seafoam? All are administered into the intake manifold or throttle body with the engine running.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

How does this product differ from B12 Chemtool or Seafoam? All are administered into the intake manifold or throttle body with the engine running.

---

In technique? None. On the engines that their being applied to ...much. You've probably never had the carbon build up on 250,000 miles of an untreated FI system that existed on the typical "used car" engine of the 60s and 70s.

But to directly answer your query, GM top engine cleaner was used exactly the same way Seafoam instructs on their can. You would pour enough down the carb until the engine stalled (warned not to continue pouring after stall to prevent hydro locking the engine) and wait 20 minutes to 1/2 hour and then pour the rest of the can into the engine while revving it. A bluish-gray cloud (quite translucent) would spew from the tail pipe.

The GM stuff would stiffle the combustion process ..as would water. ATF, on the other hand, was, all but, transparent to the combustion process. That made it my combustion chamber cleaner of choice. You don't have to do the "funky monkey" with the throttle to keep the thing running. Just rev to your hearts content. I'd just use the PCV hose. Sometimes when I felt motivated ..I'd route the hose (long extension) into the passenger compartment and shove the hose into a jug of ATF while under highway load.

Again, the cloud is probably too much for anyone to ever recommend this in today's "environment".

 

[brianl703]

What is in GM Top Engine Cleaner? I have never found an MSDS for it despite looking.