Fuel economy, esters, moly

[JAG]

A patent, http://images.freepatentsonline.com/5942475.html, by EXXON CHEMICAL PATENTS INC (US) filed in 1997 states:

Quote:
Moreover, the complex alcohol esters of the present invention eliminate the necessity of adding costly molybdenum to the lubricating oil in order to satisfy the percent fuel economy improvement which is required under the proposed GF-3 specifications. To the contrary, if conventional molybdenum additives are added to the lubricating oil comprising complex alcohol esters the data set forth herein clearly demonstrates that the resulting product has reduced percent fuel economy improvement than lubricating oils using complex alcohol esters or molybdenum alone. It is believed that the molybdenum and complex alcohol esters compete for surface cites, thus reducing the effect on the friction and wear performance of the lubricating oil.

Mixing things can cause unexpected interactions and performance. In this case, it was surface competition between moly and the esters. This is not a new concept, it's just another example of a known (by you knowledgable members) concept.

Here's some data from the patent that I've made more readable and added the comment on viscosity. It's impressive what this CALE ester did.
Quote:
(M 111 Test Result) Oil Viscosity Grade, % CALE, % FEI**, HTHS
______________________________________

Reference 5W20..0%...2.4-2.8%..2.7 cP (thinnest by far)
Ultron* 5W30.....5%....2.0%.....3.07 cP
Ultron* 5W30.....10%...2.5%.....3.07 cP
Ultron* 5W30.....15%...3.5%.....3.08 cP

*Ultron is a polyalphaolefin. **designates percent fuel economy improvement. CALE is an ester formed from the reaction product of trimethylol propane, adipic acid and isodecyl alcohol having a total acid number of 1.0, a hydroxyl number of 18 mg (KOH/gram sample), a metal (titanium) content of 1.7 ppm and a Flash Point of 465° F.

As demonstrated above..., blending of other hydrocarbon-based or synthetic oils with the complex alcohol ester according to the present invention results in a dramatic increase in the percent fuel economy improvement compared to the hydrocarbon-based or synthetic oils along or in combination with other ester basestocks.

Here's an interesting later comment about greasiness provided by the esters:

Quote:
The complex alcohol esters of the present invention demonstrated very good lubricity, much better than their wear characteristics. It is believed that these complex alcohol esters create a very "greasy" surface, but the thickness of the layer is too thin to give a proportionate decrease in wear. The very heavy components most likely impart very good wear and lubricity characteristics, but, at least in the case of wear, are diluted to some extent by the very light components.

 

[buster]

Quote:
It's impressive what this CALE ester did.


Thx for posting. It is impressive.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
JAG & buster - Again just another piece confirming what some of us have been trying to get across for many years now - don't add supplementary additives to modern lubricants - and especially the synthetics!

This particularly applies to the likes of M1 0w-40 and M1 TDT 5w-40

A well know Porsche Forum has some "Experts" and other people "pushing" large doses of GM's EOS and etc into excellent lubricants with superior and very advanced formulations including excellent Anti Wear additives. How little they know!!!

It is a hard task competing against the many myths and misleading advertising and etc. concerning high levels of the ZnDDP groups and the like

 

[glennc]

Jag, very interesting. What is thefuel economy improvement in reference to, out of curiosity? A current "Energy Conserving" oil? A non-friction-modified oil?

Red Line uses high moly and esters in all their oils. I wonder if they experience the same fuel economy hit or whether the different types of esters just react differently.

Is there a typo on the document where they say the moly and the esters compete for "surface cites" or is it some chemist terminology I'm not familiar with?

 

[badtlc]

This also goes to show that while mixing random oils might not harm anything, it can be far from optimal.

 

[buster]

Quote:
Red Line uses high moly and esters in all their oils. I wonder if they experience the same fuel economy hit or whether the different types of esters just react differently.


There are so many different ester types and selection is very important.

Doug, I agree 100%. Never have been a fan of adding anything to oil. Waste of time and money.

 

[salesrep]

It still comes down to this doesn't it.
Base oil
add pack
Blending.

Most do not give enough credence to formulation or blending.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: glennc
What is the fuel economy improvement in reference to, out of curiosity? A current "Energy Conserving" oil? A non-friction-modified oil?

In the part I quoted, all I know is that it's a 5W-20 reference oil that was used in 1997 or prior to that with the stated HTHS viscosity. I don't know anything about it but what's in the patent. When they mention % improvements in the beginning, I have no clue what it's in reference to. These patents are written like lawyers write them. Wait, lawyers do write them. Science and lawyers shouldn't mix. Wait, they don't mix.
Originally Posted By: glennc
Is there a typo on the document where they say the moly and the esters compete for "surface cites" or is it some chemist terminology I'm not familiar with?

Surface sites is how it should have been spelled IMO...that is, the esters and moly compete for the surfaces. The polar esters are attracted....they are surface active, etc.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
A well know Porsche Forum has some "Experts" and other people "pushing" large doses of GM's EOS and etc into excellent lubricants with superior and very advanced formulations including excellent Anti Wear additives. How little they know!!!

It is a hard task competing against the many myths and misleading advertising and etc. concerning high levels of the ZnDDP groups and the like

I know the feeling of frustration you feel. What frustrates me most is when people have real tribology knowledge spoon-fed to them and it has no effect on their thoughts. It's true here too. But there are many people here I admire so it's all worth it.

Originally Posted By: salesrep
It still comes down to this doesn't it.
Base oil
add pack
Blending.

Most do not give enough credence to formulation or blending.

Very true.

 

[farrarfan1]

Want to bet when the next "Is it okay to mix different brands?" topic is started several "experts" will say "Sure mix away" and will also continue to recomend use of stuff like SLOB?

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: farrarfan1
Want to bet when the next "Is it okay to mix different brands?" topic is started several "experts" will say "Sure mix away" and will also continue to recomend use of stuff like SLOB?
Ok I'll take the bait while not stating any improvement ,looking at any sm oil will mixing change any of the additive ppm's to make any difference? Doug,I never claim to be an internet expert but EOS is for break in only,,, even I know that.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
yes Steve most people with any Engineering understanding knows that too as you point out

The problem lies with the people promoting these products for some gain - many run independent repair shops too!!! They become instant experts on lubricants and additives via sales people and the "hip pocket nerve"

It is not always measured in wear metal ppm, it is measured in lubricant condition during a service cycle, vehicle drivability and durability when taken in a wide context

Sadly they promote their "wisdom" to those people with expensive vehicles that have little if any mechanical knowledge let alone any at all or very little in the world of Tribology

It is so disappointing when advice from a number of very skilled people is not heeded and abuse, suspicion and inuendo etc is used to promote their tales

 

[DmanWho]

This could all be stemming from my rebellious nature, but when I read the 1st sentence of the quote, in JAG's initial post; "Moreover, the complex alcohol esters of the present invention eliminate the necessity of adding costly molybdenum to the lubricating oil in order to satisfy the percent fuel economy improvement which is required under the proposed GF-3 specifications."
...all I hear is a price point concern and the need for that to be remedied...

Do you believe that what we are buying, "off the shelf," is the best oil that can be created by mankind?
Is that ultimately the 'goal' of motor oil manufacturers?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
DmanWho - Essentially you get waht you pay for IMHO. At the top end are the engine lubricants from the major Oil Companies that have the latest and most sophisticated base fluids and additive packages. Most have sigificant engine manufacturer Approvals

At the low end you receive an excellent lubricant to the API or ACEA quality level displayed (if any) on its container