Fuel dilution DI vs. PI

[michael007]

With these newer engines,and the fuel dilution problem,if you do dealer services to keep warrenty in effect,how do you know if your oil smells like gas?You don't. I recommend oil analysis, thru Polaris. It tells % of gas dilution.If it gets to high on a service,shorten the service.Even if you use the best oil,fuel dilution can be a problem.Addressing it is in your best interest.

Polaris only tells you the percentage up to 5%, then they just say >5%

ex- my latest uoa

 

[benjy]

manufacturers are pushed for more mpgs + less emissions + we ae the beta testers!! a quick search shows 1500 to 4500 PSI is needed to overcome cylinder pressures!!! i dont + wont EVER own a DI only engine + by the time its sorted out using both as a few already do i wont be driving much!! seems turbo DI is worse but NA DI can have issues like carbon sooner or later $$$$. i might add that those keeping their rides a long time as noted WILL likely see carbon issues as well as costly replacements of parts in the very high pressure environment BUT manufacturers care LESS as they hope to sell you ANOTHER even COSTLIER vehicle!!!!

 

[doublebase]

manufacturers are pushed for more mpgs + less emissions + we ae the beta testers!! a quick search shows 1500 to 4500 PSI is needed to overcome cylinder pressures!!! i dont + wont EVER own a DI only engine + by the time its sorted out using both as a few already do i wont be driving much!! seems turbo DI is worse but NA DI can have issues like carbon sooner or later $$$$. i might add that those keeping their rides a long time as noted WILL likely see carbon issues as well as costly replacements of parts in the very high pressure environment BUT manufacturers care LESS as they hope to sell you ANOTHER even COSTLIER vehicle!!!!

You sLund like a friend of mine, he said, “nope, I just don’t trust it, I’m not going to buy direct injection”. He bought a direct injected Mercedes e350 this summer. Lol.

I consider myself lucky right now, after 6 years of owning direct injected cars, I don’t own a single direct injected vehicle in my fleet. The funny thing is, I bought a 2016 Toyota Avalon this summer...thought it was direct injected (because that’s what I read online), get it home and pop the hood - I don’t see any high pressure fuel pumps. It’s port injected. I have the last model year Toyota made with port injection, I guess. Went to the forums, half of them thought it was direct injected as well, until someone pointed out that yes, it is port injected. I feel kind of rejuvenated in a sense. I don’t have to worry about oil consumption anymore. I don’t have to worry about fuel dilution anymore, or the backside of my intake valves coking up. It’s actually a little bit boring now...I pull that dipstick at 4,000-5,000 miles and the level is right where it’s supposed to be. And the oil still looks pretty clean. I don’t have any random misfires or hesitations anymore. I don’t get puffs of blue smoke coming out of my tailpipes anymore. I might just keep this car for a long long time (I try to keep them to at least 200,000 miles anyway), but I just had too many problems with my last two cars/trucks to do that.

 

[Cujet]

Both my 3.5L and 2.7L direct injection Ecoboost engines are just fine. However, I change the oil at the 5000 mile mark and use M1 10W-30 syn. 120,000 miles on the 3.5L, zero problems.

 

[4WD]

What’s the pressure on a direct injector compared to a port injector? 50psi to 500psi? I imagine that has a lot to do with it, plus the high pressure fuel may wash oil off the walls, losing some of that seal...then the fuel can get through easier. I’m reaching here but I don’t think I’m that far off.

I have smelled that fuel in the oil sometimes on direct injection engines. The first time you own one, it takes a bit to get used to.

Checked the 5.3L L83 oil level today and smelled fuel … it’s at 3600 miles and 52% OLM. Pulled a quart from the Fumoto … looked thin and smelled. Put a fresh quart of M1 AFE back in. That was quick and easy … will just make that a practice and run down the OLM.

 

[alcyon]

My first D.I. engine was in my Mazdaspeed 6. It was the first car I'd ever owned that could soot a completely clean set of exhaust tips on a drive to the grocery store. My commute to work has been 18-19 miles for years, so the oil got hot for a few minutes at least every week day. But the oil still smelled like gas. It's the tradeoff for performance. That engine couldn't have managed 270hp with MPFI. But I scoff at supposed improved MPG. IMO, it's improved performance by way of increased cylinder cooling, and provided a nice side-effect of no fuel condensation in the intake manifold when you crank it to move the vehicle a few feet, and shut it down. I've seen no other advantages.

I suggest mazda change the name from mazda 6 to mazda sick.

 

[doublebase]

Checked the 5.3L L83 oil level today and smelled fuel … it’s at 3600 miles and 52% OLM. Pulled a quart from the Fumoto … looked thin and smelled. Put a fresh quart of M1 AFE back in. That was quick and easy … will just make that a practice and run down the OLM.

I had a fumoto valve on my 2018 Silverado too, I like it but it just took so **** long to drain. But I guess it was worth it.

I think your idea is probably a good one...drain a quart, replenish that oil a little bit and get some fuel dilution out.

I personally never went past 35% on my oil life monitor on my Silverado, and that usually brought me to 5,000 miles. Then I changed it. But maybe I would have considered going down to 0% if I was draining out a quart and adding a fresh one. Although I will say...I did have some oil consumption with my 2018 and I usually ended up adding 3/4’s of a quart in 5,000 miles.

 

[4WD]

I had a fumoto valve on my 2018 Silverado too, I like it but it just took so **** long to drain. But I guess it was worth it.

I think your idea is probably a good one...drain a quart, replenish that oil a little bit and get some fuel dilution out.

I personally never went past 35% on my oil life monitor on my Silverado, and that usually brought me to 5,000 miles. Then I changed it. But maybe I would have considered going down to 0% if I was draining out a quart and adding a fresh one. Although I will say...I did have some oil consumption with my 2018 and I usually ended up adding 3/4’s of a quart in 5,000 miles.

Did basically the same thing while bringing my confidence level up on eCore filters … that motor is minus a quart changing a filter and added SAE HD30 for viscosity …
Knock on wood … mine does not burn oil …

 

[benjy]

best thing about DI is getting 100 hp boost on a 2.0 VW with an APR tune! glad i dont own any because i prolly could not resist!

 

[circuitsmith]

,if you do dealer services to keep warrenty in effect

Well not me. I never go to the dealer except for recalls, warranty repair and to buy OEM parts (before the internet).

 

[Tower of Power]

It would be interesting to see data from test of different oils ability to provide proper protection in engines at different levels of fuel dilution. Blackstone reports post normal amount of fuel as < 2 % but on a Honda CR-V owners forum there was a turbo-charged DI engine with 9 % of fuel in the oil. Does that much fuel cause the oil to loose the ability to protect the engine properly? There are of course other variables such as these small turbo-charged engines having higher compression and HP causing more pressure on crank journals, and the crankshaft bearings, and the higher RPMs these smaller engines run at. This sounds like a whole category that should have a name and numerical numbers assigned to different oils depending on there performance in these conditions. There should be some numerical ratings for oils so people can chose the oils that perform well in these conditions, and probably meats some industrial set minimum for these type of engines regarding these conditions.

I do not know who makes decisions regarding the naming and types of test oils should meet, but this is something they should consider.

Jim, in the GM 2.4L I often see 3-4% fuel dilution and up to 9-10% during cold weather driving. Using 5W-30 oil. I tried different types of oil and saw an improvement in oil stability. The SuperTech FS lasted less than 2k before it shared to 20 weight. I tried AC Delco FS from the dealer, which is made by Mobil/Exxon, and it lasted 2500 miles. I then tried Amsoil Signature Series for 4500 miles before it sheared to a 20 weight. I finally went to the Amsoil 0W-40 European and now at 11k miles and it is still a 30 weight oil, and wear rate is 4x lower. GDI is hell on oil and that does not consider the abrasive soot that contaminates the oil. I use a 2 micron bypass to keep clean. These engines as you may know have suffered, excessive wear, timing chain wear, and oil consumption (rings sticking). I have been asking for years for data on viscosity shearing due to fuel dilution from oil manufacturers. Some even claim up to 7% is acceptable, including Polaris Labs. I've given up and just resort to the next higher grade of oil, and a high quality Group IV. Recommend TestOil for oil analysis on GDI engines. Includes TBN, oxidation, and Particle Count and the GC fuel test is highly accurate and they go up to 10%. I wish Blackstone would start using GC.

 

[kschachn]

Jim, in the GM 2.4L I often see 3-4% fuel dilution and up to 9-10% during cold weather driving. Using 5W-30 oil. I tried different types of oil and saw an improvement in oil stability. The SuperTech FS lasted less than 2k before it shared to 20 weight. I tried AC Delco FS from the dealer, which is made by Mobil/Exxon, and it lasted 2500 miles. I then tried Amsoil Signature Series for 4500 miles before it sheared to a 20 weight. I finally went to the Amsoil 0W-40 European and now at 11k miles and it is still a 30 weight oil, and wear rate is 4x lower. GDI is hell on oil and that does not consider the abrasive soot that contaminates the oil. I use a 2 micron bypass to keep clean. These engines as you may know have suffered, excessive wear, timing chain wear, and oil consumption (rings sticking). I have been asking for years for data on viscosity shearing due to fuel dilution from oil manufacturers. Some even claim up to 7% is acceptable, including Polaris Labs. I've given up and just resort to the next higher grade of oil, and a high quality Group IV. Recommend TestOil for oil analysis on GDI engines. Includes TBN, oxidation, and Particle Count and the GC fuel test is highly accurate and they go up to 10%. I wish Blackstone would start using GC.

Shearing? Don't you mean viscosity deviation due to dilution? That makes sense in your story, the higher the starting viscosity the better. I don't see how it would be related to brand or Amsoil in particular.

 

[4WD]

Jim, in the GM 2.4L I often see 3-4% fuel dilution and up to 9-10% during cold weather driving. Using 5W-30 oil. I tried different types of oil and saw an improvement in oil stability. The SuperTech FS lasted less than 2k before it shared to 20 weight. I tried AC Delco FS from the dealer, which is made by Mobil/Exxon, and it lasted 2500 miles. I then tried Amsoil Signature Series for 4500 miles before it sheared to a 20 weight. I finally went to the Amsoil 0W-40 European and now at 11k miles and it is still a 30 weight oil, and wear rate is 4x lower. GDI is hell on oil and that does not consider the abrasive soot that contaminates the oil. I use a 2 micron bypass to keep clean. These engines as you may know have suffered, excessive wear, timing chain wear, and oil consumption (rings sticking). I have been asking for years for data on viscosity shearing due to fuel dilution from oil manufacturers. Some even claim up to 7% is acceptable, including Polaris Labs. I've given up and just resort to the next higher grade of oil, and a high quality Group IV. Recommend TestOil for oil analysis on GDI engines. Includes TBN, oxidation, and Particle Count and the GC fuel test is highly accurate and they go up to 10%. I wish Blackstone would start using GC.

It’s been several years since XOM made AC Delco … P66 got the next contract … higher chance the Amsoil had XOM base stock …

 

[kschachn]

It’s been several years since XOM made AC Delco … P66 got the next contract … higher chance the Amsoil had XOM base stock …

Tower of Power seems to have just dropped in for a moment.

 

[Tower of Power]

Shearing? Don't you mean viscosity deviation due to dilution? That makes sense in your story, the higher the starting viscosity the better. I don't see how it would be related to brand or Amsoil in particular.

I use the term shearing to indicate loss in viscosity from what I presume to be break down of the VI modifiers. My understanding shearing can be caused by physical forces or chemical contamination or combination of both. The stability, solubility, and make up of the Group IV base oil and additive package, and inherent higher viscosity index, I presume make a difference in the viscosity reduction when compared to the other oils.. My observations and oil tests I would not characterize as a story.

 

[Tower of Power]

It’s been several years since XOM made AC Delco … P66 got the next contract … higher chance the Amsoil had XOM base stock …

It was in 2019 when I sampled both AC Delco oil in a quart bottle and from bulk, delivered oil at my local dealer. It was API SN+ and the dealer said it was a Exxon/Mobil finished product. How does one know or find out what the sources is of the Group IV base stock and/or carrier oil in the additive package. Most if not all companies do not disclose that information.