From GMI: Saturn May Go To The Bank

[mpvue]

Originally Posted By: John_K
An elderly relative of my wife's just bought a Buick and she refers to it as the "death car" (last car purchase before death). Grand Finale Wagon fits that perfectly!

John

A friend of mine who sold saturns would joke that saturns had first time buyer programs, but buick had last time buyer programs.
buick salesmen wouldn't let customers go home to 'think about it', because they might not last that long.

if saturn has to go, opel and saturn should go together (since there is talk in Europe about Opel getting a bailout). then, the new owner can just drop the saturn name, and sell opels in America again.

 

[Saturn_Fan]

Originally Posted By: kingrob
This was recently referenced in another thread. The Saturn line is now basically the American equivalent of the Opel brand. Apparently they're not selling well, or well enough to warrant the cost of keeping the line up and running.

Saturn has been dead to me (and most original Saturn owners) when they got away from their original concept of a completely independent car manufacturer that was distributed by GM. When they were absorbed back into the general line we all heard the death chimes.


+1 Kingrob. Saturn died to me a long time ago. Instead of taking a car like the S Series making it better (I get 40+ mpg in mine easily), they produced the ION. Instead of tweaking the Saturn VUE to make it better, they had constant problems with the CVT transmission, AWD system, body panels, suspension problems and constant noises, etc. I owned an 06 and it was a piece of [censored]. Saturn ceased being Saturn and became GM then Opel.

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

Originally Posted By: XS650
The big danger for the Chinese market is that the Chinese a very superstitious people, particularly about death. Once they find out that the name Buick is associated with the end of life in the the US, sales in China will plummet.

Two things that my relatives don't like as gifts are clocks and things in the shape of coffins. Someday, someone is going to get a clock from me.

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

We always see Lexus "Christmas to Remember Sales Events" every year on TV. Interesting how there is no similar program for Buicks. I guess their spouse wouldn't remember what they bought them for Christmas anyway.

 

[StevieC]

Introducing the Buick "Another Christmas I lived to see sales event" Buy now and get your meds for free for a year!

.

 

[dwendt44]

Around here, Toyota dealers just sell Toyotas.
Buick dealers typically sell one or two other GM lines also.
Toyota has a dozen or so models; Buick has only 3 or 4.

 

[Diesel_Clatter]

Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan
Originally Posted By: kingrob
This was recently referenced in another thread. The Saturn line is now basically the American equivalent of the Opel brand. Apparently they're not selling well, or well enough to warrant the cost of keeping the line up and running.

Saturn has been dead to me (and most original Saturn owners) when they got away from their original concept of a completely independent car manufacturer that was distributed by GM. When they were absorbed back into the general line we all heard the death chimes.


+1 Kingrob. Saturn died to me a long time ago. Instead of taking a car like the S Series making it better (I get 40+ mpg in mine easily), they produced the ION. Instead of tweaking the Saturn VUE to make it better, they had constant problems with the CVT transmission, AWD system, body panels, suspension problems and constant noises, etc. I owned an 06 and it was a piece of [censored]. Saturn ceased being Saturn and became GM then Opel.


Sounds like your 2006 Vue experience is similar to my 2007 ION experience.

The ION has been solid for two years at the most basic level of not stranding me.

However, if:

Horrendous rubbery/squealing clutch pedal fixed under warranty, not uncommon complaint in forums

Instrument panel fit and finish, panel joints just absolutely horrible

Simple cabin air filter change turned into ordeal by bulging, misfitting dash plastic and dangling misplaced cables

Creaking and groaning driver seat

Cover on upper stop light popped off by child (whats this? pop

)

Little foam piece in rear door handwell pulled out by my autistic child and ends up in his mouth (what are you chewing on

)

Visible rust already at joint of rubber trim in trunk

Visible rust already at base of striker under hood

Multiple occasions of brake warning light staying on for no reason (yes, brake fluid level and emergency brake lever checked) until restart

Multiple occasions of ABS warning light staying on until restart

Fuel gauge dropping to zero for several days despite full tank

Occassional random warning chime at startup just to make me scratch my head

CEL caused by both switches on clutch pedal failing (maybe can credit this to dealer service of gripe #1)

Irritating buzz IP area of center dash

Front passenger seat cover clip coming loose in front, fixed by dealer, now loose again

squeak, squeak, squeak chirping bird noise to greet me when I drive with my windows down

nice groan from rear suspension when I back out from my driveway in the morning

are the definition of a piece of [censored], then, yes, sadly, I own a piece of [censored].

I read the fairly common refrain about how wonderful American cars are now and how we should just give them a chance with interest. Seems to me I have done this, paid full retail price, and now feel like quite the idiot for my choice.

To top it all off, the ION has slightly worse resale value than a bag of warm dog poo. I knew this going in but didn't give it proper credit since the plan was to drive it into the ground. Unfortunately, now that I realize this is like 15 years of purgatory, the low resale value leaves me feeling trapped as well as stupid.

Parked right next to my 2007 ION in our garage is a 2006 Corolla.

I have found that, unlike the ION, my initially low opinion of the Corolla has only improved over the years as we live with it. Toyota, seems to have a much, much, much better handle on the little details that can sway opinions.

When we buy our next car, do you think it will be a GM or a Toyota?

 

[mpvue]

Originally Posted By: Diesel_Clatter
Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan
Originally Posted By: kingrob
This was recently referenced in another thread. The Saturn line is now basically the American equivalent of the Opel brand. Apparently they're not selling well, or well enough to warrant the cost of keeping the line up and running.

Saturn has been dead to me (and most original Saturn owners) when they got away from their original concept of a completely independent car manufacturer that was distributed by GM. When they were absorbed back into the general line we all heard the death chimes.


+1 Kingrob. Saturn died to me a long time ago. Instead of taking a car like the S Series making it better (I get 40+ mpg in mine easily), they produced the ION. Instead of tweaking the Saturn VUE to make it better, they had constant problems with the CVT transmission, AWD system, body panels, suspension problems and constant noises, etc. I owned an 06 and it was a piece of [censored]. Saturn ceased being Saturn and became GM then Opel.


Sounds like your 2006 Vue experience is similar to my 2007 ION experience.

The ION has been solid for two years at the most basic level of not stranding me.

However, if:

Horrendous rubbery/squealing clutch pedal fixed under warranty, not uncommon complaint in forums

Instrument panel fit and finish, panel joints just absolutely horrible

Simple cabin air filter change turned into ordeal by bulging, misfitting dash plastic and dangling misplaced cables

Creaking and groaning driver seat

Cover on upper stop light popped off by child (whats this? pop

)

Little foam piece in rear door handwell pulled out by my autistic child and ends up in his mouth (what are you chewing on

)

Visible rust already at joint of rubber trim in trunk

Visible rust already at base of striker under hood

Multiple occasions of brake warning light staying on for no reason (yes, brake fluid level and emergency brake lever checked) until restart

Multiple occasions of ABS warning light staying on until restart

Fuel gauge dropping to zero for several days despite full tank

Occassional random warning chime at startup just to make me scratch my head

CEL caused by both switches on clutch pedal failing (maybe can credit this to dealer service of gripe #1)

Irritating buzz IP area of center dash

Front passenger seat cover clip coming loose in front, fixed by dealer, now loose again

squeak, squeak, squeak chirping bird noise to greet me when I drive with my windows down

nice groan from rear suspension when I back out from my driveway in the morning

are the definition of a piece of [censored], then, yes, sadly, I own a piece of [censored].

I read the fairly common refrain about how wonderful American cars are now and how we should just give them a chance with interest. Seems to me I have done this, paid full retail price, and now feel like quite the idiot for my choice.

To top it all off, the ION has slightly worse resale value than a bag of warm dog poo. I knew this going in but didn't give it proper credit since the plan was to drive it into the ground. Unfortunately, now that I realize this is like 15 years of purgatory, the low resale value leaves me feeling trapped as well as stupid.

Parked right next to my 2007 ION in our garage is a 2006 Corolla.

I have found that, unlike the ION, my initially low opinion of the Corolla has only improved over the years as we live with it. Toyota, seems to have a much, much, much better handle on the little details that can sway opinions.

When we buy our next car, do you think it will be a GM or a Toyota?


wow. do you have that all memorized, or do you keep the list on your desktop for quick cut-and-paste opportunities?

not to sound like a GM apologist, but my '04 VUE has been a great vehicle overall. just passed 60K, maintenance so far has been front brakes, sway bar links, struts and shocks. while under warranty, we had a water leak under the dash fixed, and a rear door that needed alignment, that's it.
the problem is, people tend to talk more about a bad experience than a good one. I'm not denying that you have all those issues w/ your ION, but it certainly doesn't represent the whole company.
I do agree, however, that saturn is not the same. but, I don't think the S series was all that great of a car. I've owned them and sold them and worked on them. horrible car to sell new. the test drive if anything would serve to make them NOT buy the car. not bad, just boring. and the engine, please. the ION's ecotec is light years ahead of the saturn 1.9 .

 

[kingrob]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Quote:
As a result, only 88 Buicks a year are sold per dealer versus 1,821 for Toyota.


TnS, That's an eye opener.

I had no idea it was that bad.


Buick has three models. Toyota has twenty. Do the math.

The cheapest stripped down Buick you can get is 26,350. The only two Toyota's in this price range are the Avalon and the Hybrid Camry ($27,845 and $26,150). So, an ACCURATE COMPARISON would be to determine which vehicles sell more, the Lucernes/LaCrosses or
the Avalon/Camry Hybrid?

Total US sales 2007:

Avalon sales = 72,945 Camry Hybrid= 54,447
Total: 127,392

Buick Lucerne = 96,424 LaCrosse= 51,664
Total: 148,088



So I guess BUICK IS OUTSELLING TOYOTA. See how easy it is to become a sheep when you don't think for yourself?

 

[rjundi]

Dump Saturn, they do not produce anything unique. I think they had an okay thing going with S-series and experience but its done and over now. The best parts of their "experience" is available at many other dealers.

On Buick, it is a very popular brand in China where GM does produce high quality cars that appeal to them. My father proudly drives/rides in a chinese built Cadillac SLS (foreign market only stretched STS) that had better interior build than US produced STS. At this point in time I imagine the US built Caddy hopefully has caught up.

 

[Norm Olt]

Huh, the Malibu is, supposedly, a big GM hit: why get rid of it?

 

[JustinH]

I have a 2003 Ion 1 with a stick. I avoided all those weird CVT auto transmissions offered in that year, and avoided most of the problems. The thing has crank windows, no traction control, no abs, AC is the only option.

My car is coming up on 50k, the only work so far (knock on wood), has been preventative maintenance, and wear items (tires)..

Heck it has the original front brake pads and rotors on it still.

It gets 31mpg, and I paid cash for it a few years ago to let someone else eat the depreciation. I think I paid 6000 for the car when it had under 20k miles on it.

The insurance on the thing is 249 for six months.

It isn't a luxury thing to ride around in, but it serves my purposes.

A guy on the ion forums got 350k out of a 03 ion with a stick, he was on the original clutch (it was slipping towards the end).

I'd call it a good american car. Miles ahead of the sunfire that my girlfriend drives, that thing is garbage.

 

[labman]

I guess we all have different experience to report. I am really happy with my 02 Cavalier, Ecotec and 5 speed. In 140K 2 recent non wear item replacements, The driver's window motor and a stereo speaker. I have had to take that #$%^&*(*&^@#$%^ door apart a third time to free up the lock rod.

I hate the electric windows, but they were in a package with the cruse control.

Oh, yes, no wear item timing belts to have replaced twice.

 

[mpvue]

Originally Posted By: labman

Oh, yes, no wear item timing belts to have replaced twice.

that is an accessory, or serpentine, belt, not a timing belt.

 

[addyguy]

I'll go on record too as being happy with my 2002 Cavalier. Sure, it's hard a few 'glitches' and problems, but honesly, a LOT less than I though I'd have, and overall its a reliable, good car to drive.

They aren't 'junk' at all...

 

[benjamming]

kingrob,

I assume that your comparison post was tongue-in-cheek. A non-hybrid Camry is also in that price range of $26k. Granted not all trim lines are, but the XLE sure is.

 

[kingrob]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
kingrob,

I assume that your comparison post was tongue-in-cheek. A non-hybrid Camry is also in that price range of $26k. Granted not all trim lines are, but the XLE sure is.


Though I wrote the post with tongue firmly planted in cheek, I think the comparison is fair and accurate. Buick has three vehicles, two cars and a truck. The cheapest Buick you can buy (according to Buick), stripped down, is $26,350. The only two Toyota's with this high a beginning asking price are the Avalon and the Hybrid Camry ($27,845 and $26,150). If I wanted to get TECHNICAL I would have excluded the Hybrid Civic as it starts off two hundred less than the Lucerne. But, I'm trying to be as fair as possible.

I know the upscale regular Camry's can go as high as the 30k range, but the Lucerne doesn't go below the 26k range. The point of my argument as that you're comparing a marque with three upscale vehicles to a company that has only ONE really upscale vehicle in that price range, but 19 other vehicles that range from econobox to mid-sized. Then to say Toyota dealers sell 1200+ vehicles a year compared to 88 Buicks a year... uh, stupid comparison anyone?

Seriously, that makes as much sense as saying that being that Lamborghini sells five hundred vehicles a year in the US that Hyundai's putting them out of business. Two different companies, two different markets.

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

You know, I remember going into a Saturn dealership in 2001/2002 and eyeing up an SL2 that was fully loaded. The price reached over $16,000 at the time. I thought "wow, that's FAR too over priced for that car".

I'm shoulda bought the "10th anniversary" series, and SL with SL2 trimmings, rims, moonroof, CD player, etc. for $12,000 0% financing for 5 years. I didn't pull the trigger on that one. Should have. I'd probably would still have it.

At any rate, the SL2 that was approaching $17K that was over a decade old was far too overpriced for the market. Now looking back, it makes sense that GM poured it's $2,600 worth of extra costs into that car and charged the public so much for it.

GM has been suffering for years, now that they have not learned to follow the momentum of Saturn, rather they buried it. Rather than reducing expenses, they're asking for bailouts. Rather than realizing that US auto market share is under 50% and adjust to the market* conditions & prices.

*which they did as the U.S. consumer bought the big trucks and SUV's, so they DID respond to the market to their credit.

 

[JustinH]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
I'll go on record too as being happy with my 2002 Cavalier. Sure, it's hard a few 'glitches' and problems, but honesly, a LOT less than I though I'd have, and overall its a reliable, good car to drive.

They aren't 'junk' at all...


My girlfriend has a loaded 2003 Sunfire. Sun and Sound package or whatever, every single option.

The motor and trans are bulletproof, but I don't like the way the thing drives. Its a two door, its very cramped. I don't like how it steers, I don't even like how it drives.

They put BMW H11 and H9 headlight bulbs in this car, they are 14 dollars each to replace. Then the whole electrical harness in the headlights shorted out, we are trying to get that fixed under recall.

I wish I would have gotten her into a Delta Chassis car (Cobalt/Ion), but her budget wouldn't allow..

Its just miles of a better built car than the J bodies.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: ToyotaNSaturn


*which they did as the U.S. consumer bought the big trucks and SUV's, so they DID respond to the market to their credit.


To their dis-credit, they focused on the big truck/suv market with such laser precision that they neglected the small car market. As a result they were completely unprepared when the market changed. Markets always change, it was incompetent for GM management to not be ready for change.

Not only did their shortsightedness leave them unprepared, it has helped convince a large share of the buying public that there is no sense in even looking in a GM dealership.

The old adage about "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" was never truer.