Fram's answer to Daimler/Chrysler
- Thread starter Les
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Thanks for the article, Les. That was some pretty sad legalese double-talk BS coming from Fram. I had already decided never to use a Fram, that article will just solidify my stand.
Wouldn't it be better for them to just stop making shoddy products? With the one Fram filter I cut open I could easily blame them for reduced engine life (but a filter could almost never be blamed for a catastrophic failure).
http://www.widman.biz/Aplicaciones/Filters/filters.html
http://www.widman.biz/Aplicaciones/Filters/filters.html
That really is lame. They admit they found bits of their filter (and other contaminants) which caused oil clogging and engine failure ... but claim there's no conclusive evidence that their crummy filters caused the engine failures.
Just like there's no conclusive evidence that cigarette smoking causes cancer.
Frams totally suck and I NEVER buy them just based on principal.
"Wouldn't it be better for (Fram) to just stop making shoddy products?"
Not as long as bull$#it is cheaper than quality materials.
--- Bror Jace
Just like there's no conclusive evidence that cigarette smoking causes cancer.
Frams totally suck and I NEVER buy them just based on principal.
"Wouldn't it be better for (Fram) to just stop making shoddy products?"
Not as long as bull$#it is cheaper than quality materials.
--- Bror Jace
This is all pretty sad. I can remember long ago when it was simpler times and I basically used just Pennzoil oil and FRAM oil filters. It was automatic reaching for that orange can. I developed a kind of fondness with FRAM. It has now been a long time since I used FRAM.
Nobody at FRAM probably cares in the least that I am no longer a FRAM customer. They are still selling plenty of oil filters. One customer probably means nothing to them.
But someday it may all come back to haunt them. The easy way to continue being a name brand and to continue to sell at a high level is to produce a quality product. If enough negative information gradually reaches wide circulation, sales could drop and FRAM could fade away.
But I suppose everything fades away in the end.
Nobody at FRAM probably cares in the least that I am no longer a FRAM customer. They are still selling plenty of oil filters. One customer probably means nothing to them.
But someday it may all come back to haunt them. The easy way to continue being a name brand and to continue to sell at a high level is to produce a quality product. If enough negative information gradually reaches wide circulation, sales could drop and FRAM could fade away.
But I suppose everything fades away in the end.
Pennzoil went the quality route and Fram continue to BS. I currently use Pennzoil but Fram will never get my $$!
Here is the list of filter that Cummins/chrysler recommends:
Part Number Manufacturer
05016547 AC Mopar
LF3894 Fleetguard Stratopore
LF3552 Fleetguard Microglass
LF3949 Fleetguard Cellulose
3937695 Cummins Cellulose
FL896 MotorCraft Cellulose
L45335 Purolator Cellulose
PF1070 AC Delco Cellulose
There seems to be a large number of very repected filter manufacturers excluded from this list. I don't see WIX on it; I don't see Baldwin/Hastings either. Fram addressed the problem, Have these manufacturers? Are their filter junk also.
Part Number Manufacturer
05016547 AC Mopar
LF3894 Fleetguard Stratopore
LF3552 Fleetguard Microglass
LF3949 Fleetguard Cellulose
3937695 Cummins Cellulose
FL896 MotorCraft Cellulose
L45335 Purolator Cellulose
PF1070 AC Delco Cellulose
There seems to be a large number of very repected filter manufacturers excluded from this list. I don't see WIX on it; I don't see Baldwin/Hastings either. Fram addressed the problem, Have these manufacturers? Are their filter junk also.
re: "I developed a kind of fondness with FRAM."
Kind of like finding out your girl friend is cheating on you?
Kind of like finding out your girl friend is cheating on you?
Hi,
Daimler/Chrysler own Detroit Diesel of course and some time ago were most concerned when I wanted to use Donaldson's ELF range of long life filters. The engines were still under warranty
I arranged for Donaldson to import some from the USA for me and they are now used quite widely by other Truck Fleet owners too
I change the Delvac 1 at 100000km intervals and use a Glacier/Mann centrifuge. The Donalson filters survive the 100000kms very well
These filters are very well made with only a slight tendency to seal leakage
Regards
Doug Hillary
Daimler/Chrysler own Detroit Diesel of course and some time ago were most concerned when I wanted to use Donaldson's ELF range of long life filters. The engines were still under warranty
I arranged for Donaldson to import some from the USA for me and they are now used quite widely by other Truck Fleet owners too
I change the Delvac 1 at 100000km intervals and use a Glacier/Mann centrifuge. The Donalson filters survive the 100000kms very well
These filters are very well made with only a slight tendency to seal leakage
Regards
Doug Hillary
"re: "I developed a kind of fondness with FRAM."
Kind of like finding out your girl friend is cheating on you?"
I'd say it's more like finding out your girlfriend is actually a world record contender in skankdom.
The ho everyone in the neighborhood had years ago and now they're all laughing at you for being such a loser and actually willing to put your **** in her.
C'mon, what do you think of some guy who still swears by Fram filters and sings their praises everytime automotive stuff is brought up? I think such a guy has no clue whatsoever and instantly everything he says from that point on is highly suspect.
--- Bror Jace
Kind of like finding out your girl friend is cheating on you?"
I'd say it's more like finding out your girlfriend is actually a world record contender in skankdom.
The ho everyone in the neighborhood had years ago and now they're all laughing at you for being such a loser and actually willing to put your **** in her.
C'mon, what do you think of some guy who still swears by Fram filters and sings their praises everytime automotive stuff is brought up? I think such a guy has no clue whatsoever and instantly everything he says from that point on is highly suspect.
--- Bror Jace
The Penzoil filters are indeed frams, but I think the idea here is that they cleaned up their act in their main product line of motor oil.
I don't buy that FRam filters are "junk". I've used Fram filters in an Chevy S-10 (120,000 miles) Oil analysis was best ever with M1 10w-30 and Fram X2.
The X2 is a pretty decent filter design. The problem is, Fram charges $10 for it. For much less money, you can get other filters that are equal in quality from other companies. Fram's run-of-the-mill filters are junk: thin media, plastic bypass valves, and cardboard endcaps.
Kestas
Staff member
Those ****ed lawyers and how they can pick apart language!! Bror Jace said it best.
I used to work at Chrysler, and I would have been the guy who conducted the analysis on contaminant debris found in the engines! I still do this type of work for other companies, so I have a feel of how nebulous these investigations can get and how a researcher "hedges" with his/her results.
Allied picked up on the fact that the researcher's results were inconclusive (a legal definition of his interpretation). Early on, we were trained to hedge with our results using phrases like "possibility", "high probability", or "results suggest...". But it appears his results were strong enough to convince the Chrysler engineers with common sense that there was a good probability the Fram oil filters were at fault and the problem should be rectified.
The "low" incidence of failure, as interpreted by Allied, was apparently high enough for Chrysler to take action.
These legal stances taken by corporations such as Allied do nothing to convince the educated public that their products are okay. It only magnifies their arrogance!
[ June 03, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Kestas ]
I used to work at Chrysler, and I would have been the guy who conducted the analysis on contaminant debris found in the engines! I still do this type of work for other companies, so I have a feel of how nebulous these investigations can get and how a researcher "hedges" with his/her results.
Allied picked up on the fact that the researcher's results were inconclusive (a legal definition of his interpretation). Early on, we were trained to hedge with our results using phrases like "possibility", "high probability", or "results suggest...". But it appears his results were strong enough to convince the Chrysler engineers with common sense that there was a good probability the Fram oil filters were at fault and the problem should be rectified.
The "low" incidence of failure, as interpreted by Allied, was apparently high enough for Chrysler to take action.
These legal stances taken by corporations such as Allied do nothing to convince the educated public that their products are okay. It only magnifies their arrogance!
[ June 03, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Kestas ]
Bror Jace, read my post again. I am not singing the praises of FRAM. I stopped using FRAMs a long time ago. There is a person on this web site who does sing praises to FRAM every chance he gets and whenever anybody says anything negative about FRAMs.
That is fine with me-he can use FRAM. But he supports FRAM to such an extent that it does make me wonder.
Personally, I have been willing to use many brands of oil filter. I have used FRAM, Purolator, Hastings, Wix, Amsoil, K&N, NAPA Gold (Wix), CarQuest Premium (Wix), tried to use a Baldwin (it did not fit my car), AC-Delco, Motorcraft, Toyota, Mopar, and some I probably cannot remember.
As I said in a previous post, I have no brand loyalty. I lost that after some brands (such as FRAM) let me down. If I found out tomorrow morning that the best oil filter at the best price was a Purolator, I would use Purolator. I do not think it is very likely to happen, but if I found out that FRAM was the best, then I would use FRAM.
I do wonder why the person who is such a strong FRAM supporter is not willing to try anything else. Basically his argument seems to be, I have used FRAMs for many years, FRAMs have served me well, and I will not try anything else and if anybody attacks FRAM I will defend FRAM.
That is fine with me-he can use FRAM. But he supports FRAM to such an extent that it does make me wonder.
Personally, I have been willing to use many brands of oil filter. I have used FRAM, Purolator, Hastings, Wix, Amsoil, K&N, NAPA Gold (Wix), CarQuest Premium (Wix), tried to use a Baldwin (it did not fit my car), AC-Delco, Motorcraft, Toyota, Mopar, and some I probably cannot remember.
As I said in a previous post, I have no brand loyalty. I lost that after some brands (such as FRAM) let me down. If I found out tomorrow morning that the best oil filter at the best price was a Purolator, I would use Purolator. I do not think it is very likely to happen, but if I found out that FRAM was the best, then I would use FRAM.
I do wonder why the person who is such a strong FRAM supporter is not willing to try anything else. Basically his argument seems to be, I have used FRAMs for many years, FRAMs have served me well, and I will not try anything else and if anybody attacks FRAM I will defend FRAM.
Sorta OT but in doing my extended warranty inspections I find that the majority of vehicles have Fram filters. Say 7 out of 10 or so. Next most common would be MileGard for about 2 out of 10 and the rest split between the manufacturer's brand and the remaining aftermarkets.
I haven't compiled numbers or anything it's just that I can bet myself that when I look the car will have a Fram and usually I win. Oh, and I'm not saying the filters had anything to do with why I was there (although a couple of Teflon impregnated ones DO come to mind) it's just that the form asks for oil filter brand/condition.
I haven't compiled numbers or anything it's just that I can bet myself that when I look the car will have a Fram and usually I win. Oh, and I'm not saying the filters had anything to do with why I was there (although a couple of Teflon impregnated ones DO come to mind) it's just that the form asks for oil filter brand/condition.
Mystic and Bror Jace may be pointing their finger's at me,and if so,that's life.If my posts are taken as suspect,just say so.
I'm not defending Fram on this,but I am looking at the whole picture on this issue.
If you re-read the statement from Fram,it says there were other contaminents in the sample,along with the neoprene.There may as well be another source of neoprene besides the Fram filter.It seems as though Fram has eliminated the neoprene,in my opinion,for the following reasons..
A.If it was the filter neoprene,they have eliminated it.
B. If it wasn't,they did anyway so if the condition happens again,they can be excluded from any source.
C.They have done this to protect their name,and to increase or restore sales.
I hear a lot of bad things about Fram on this website,but I've never heard of a post stating that the Fram filter itself caused a engine failure.All I hear about is cardboard endcaps.We use nothing but Fram on our 5.9's in our trucks and they work well.Our UOA's are consistant,and we have no engine failures.
I don't swear by Fram filters,I only use them now on my race car as they pay contengency money.My other vehicles use SuperTech,as I can't knock a filter for $1.97.
[ June 04, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Chris 2421 ]
I'm not defending Fram on this,but I am looking at the whole picture on this issue.
If you re-read the statement from Fram,it says there were other contaminents in the sample,along with the neoprene.There may as well be another source of neoprene besides the Fram filter.It seems as though Fram has eliminated the neoprene,in my opinion,for the following reasons..
A.If it was the filter neoprene,they have eliminated it.
B. If it wasn't,they did anyway so if the condition happens again,they can be excluded from any source.
C.They have done this to protect their name,and to increase or restore sales.
I hear a lot of bad things about Fram on this website,but I've never heard of a post stating that the Fram filter itself caused a engine failure.All I hear about is cardboard endcaps.We use nothing but Fram on our 5.9's in our trucks and they work well.Our UOA's are consistant,and we have no engine failures.
I don't swear by Fram filters,I only use them now on my race car as they pay contengency money.My other vehicles use SuperTech,as I can't knock a filter for $1.97.
[ June 04, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Chris 2421 ]
Kestas, thanks!
Mystic, I wasn't singling you out for anything I wrote. I'm glad I haven't noticed the Fram apologist here but people can be stubborn about brand names and have seen Fram aplogists elsewhere. People begin using a brand for a variety of reasons and then get defensive when someone suggests it isn't very good, etc ... This can get nasty as people defend their brand which has (unforunately) become part of their identity.
Parker Dean, I liked the post but couldn't make out your point, exactly.
I know that Frams are #1 in popularity by a wide, wide margin. This is because they (Allied Signal) are a large company which makes a cheap filter, spends a dizzying amount of money on advertising and other promotional efforts and can still price their filter competitively. They also make complementary products like Bendix brakes, Autolite ignition components, etc ... which makes it even more attractive (from a business standpoint) for distributors to carry their line of automotive goods.
Of course, this doesn't say anything about their quality. Most cars & trucks will survive their warranty period and even an extended warranty period despite the use of inferior products and outright abuse.
I've said a long time ago that if one changes his/her own oil & filter every 3,000 miles, they will easily surpass 100,000 miles if not 150,000 miles or more regardless of the brands used.
Heck, with a 3K drain interval, the filter could be in bypass the entire time and it probably wouldn't matter much.
--- Bror Jace
Mystic, I wasn't singling you out for anything I wrote. I'm glad I haven't noticed the Fram apologist here but people can be stubborn about brand names and have seen Fram aplogists elsewhere. People begin using a brand for a variety of reasons and then get defensive when someone suggests it isn't very good, etc ... This can get nasty as people defend their brand which has (unforunately) become part of their identity.
Parker Dean, I liked the post but couldn't make out your point, exactly.
I know that Frams are #1 in popularity by a wide, wide margin. This is because they (Allied Signal) are a large company which makes a cheap filter, spends a dizzying amount of money on advertising and other promotional efforts and can still price their filter competitively. They also make complementary products like Bendix brakes, Autolite ignition components, etc ... which makes it even more attractive (from a business standpoint) for distributors to carry their line of automotive goods.
Of course, this doesn't say anything about their quality. Most cars & trucks will survive their warranty period and even an extended warranty period despite the use of inferior products and outright abuse.
I've said a long time ago that if one changes his/her own oil & filter every 3,000 miles, they will easily surpass 100,000 miles if not 150,000 miles or more regardless of the brands used.
Heck, with a 3K drain interval, the filter could be in bypass the entire time and it probably wouldn't matter much.
--- Bror Jace
I don't know why Fram takes all of the heat here. The Daimler-Chrysler TSB never mentions Fram specifically. It excludes those filter that do not meet their specs. This exclusion includes the highly regarded filters made by Baldwin and Wix.
I went to both of these companies respective WEB sites. They still offer a filter for the Cummins 5.9 l diesel. They simply ignore the Chrysler TSB. They do not tell you if they even realize that a TSB was issued effecting their filters. Is this your idea of corporate responsibility?
I really don't care what filter that you choose to install on you engine. But I do get upset with people that cannot think critically.
I went to both of these companies respective WEB sites. They still offer a filter for the Cummins 5.9 l diesel. They simply ignore the Chrysler TSB. They do not tell you if they even realize that a TSB was issued effecting their filters. Is this your idea of corporate responsibility?
I really don't care what filter that you choose to install on you engine. But I do get upset with people that cannot think critically.
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