Fossil Fuels to the rescue...

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Originally Posted By: SeaJay
Often times the law of unintended consequences rears its head and something unfortunate happens. If I understand the OP's point, fossil fuel may be the thing that will solve the problems caused by the law of unintended consequences in this situation.

Given the agenda of the people behind the public policy that led to these unintended consequences, I think it is an excellent point that the OP raised with fossil fuel coming to the rescue.


Since the mid 50s, Oz had state "Electricity Commissions", whose role was to keep the lights on, cost effectively, and their M.O. was to install new plant, of the next generation and efficiency, basload it and use the older stuff as "peakers", wearing it out and retiring it.

'90s, under pressure (largely from the U.S.) we were all broken up, and sold (latter took time, last one in my state was sold just before Christmas, but was operating as a private company since 1995...focus ceased to be on lights on, and building new, efficient plant to bottom line drivers.

Tasmania...they burned all their water making money, with no regard for the drought, or the single contingency cable connecting them with the mainland...the water that they burned was 400MW per day exported to the mainland into the middle of Brown Coal cheapest electricity in the country.

Result is that the alternates (the gas plants) are flooded with cheap energy (in Tasmania), below their marginal costs, and plants are put into mothballs.

It's unintended consequences for sure, but very forseeable.
 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-13/tasmania-warned-to-use-diesel-generators-only-'as-a-last-resort'/7165286

Quote:
Hydro Tasmania has more than doubled the number of diesel generators on order to 200 after Basslink revealed it would not be able to fix the undersea power cable to Victoria by the target date of March 19.

The cable has been out of action since December 20, forcing Hydro Tasmania to rely heavily on already low water storages to meet the state's energy demands.

Hydro is not saying how much it is spending on alternative power supplies, but consultant Marc White estimated it would cost five times as much to run a diesel generator as import the same amount of electricity.

"Before running the diesel generators, there'll be more opportunities to negotiate commercial load reductions with major industry and really keep those diesel generators as a last resort," he said.


http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/tasmania...-gen-sets-88982

Quote:
Energy consumers in Tasmania – already facing a trebling in wholesale electricity prices since the state lost its grid connection to the mainland, now face yet another trebling in prices as the government turns to highly expensive diesel gen-sets to protect its rapidly depleting hydro resources.

The Tasmania government late Friday announced it would turn to diesel gen-sets to ensure the lights would not go out and was ordering at least 200MW of containerised diesel generators to be installed as hydro levels continue to fall and the repair to the Basslink cable to the mainland is further delayed.

Tasmania enjoys among the cheapest costs of wholesale energy in the country when it relies only on hydro and wind energy. But prices doubled to around $90/MWh when it decided to import 40 per cent of its needs from Victoria in the face of the driest spring on record which forced hydro levels to fall to near record levels.

That cost rose further to more than $110/MWh when the Basslink cable failed in December, and the government had to accelerate its plan to bring back its Tamar Gas power station into production.

That has brought back 280MW of gas capacity into production, and Hydro Tasmania is now planning to add another 75MW of gas and up to 200MW of diesel power in “containerised diesel generation.”

The cost of diesel generation is expected to be at least $300/MWh and may be more. As some diesel was switched on at the weekend, the average price of electricity jumped to more than $160/MWh on Friday and Saturday. This compares to prices of around $40/MWh last summer.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
You mean waving the fossil fuel flag on a forum with OIL in its title is getting old? How could that be?


Fossils have got nothing to do with oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Kruse
Here's a "green" energy supply that I find laughable:
My in-laws live in Texas and my wife and I often take I35 through southern Oklahoma to get there. The south side of Oklahoma has the Arbuckle Mountain range, a scenic area that has lots of tourist spots, water falls and scenic beauty. At least it USED to have scenic beauty. I went through there a few months ago and they have cut off the peak of just about every tall mountain and have installed a wind turbine on each one.
I really feel sorry for the people who make their living from tourism, because now the scenic view has been diminished drastically. I think the people of Oklahoma have sold their souls.

No we haven't sold our souls. We're taking advantage of one of the most sustained wind energy states in the US by putting in windmills. Go west on I40 around Weatherford....you think I35 has a bunch. We're trying to get out of the oil business and become a leader in wind power.
 
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
You mean waving the fossil fuel flag on a forum with OIL in its title is getting old? How could that be?


Fossils have got nothing to do with oil.


Ahh, the flying spaghetti monster, sensing his tendrils are a little too soggy today cleans it off and places it underground for us to use...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
You mean waving the fossil fuel flag on a forum with OIL in its title is getting old? How could that be?


Fossils have got nothing to do with oil.


Ahh, the flying spaghetti monster, sensing his tendrils are a little too soggy today cleans it off and places it underground for us to use...


It's been known for decades but denied by those who might profit the most from the diminishing resource theory. This might help you.
 
My famous quote:

"If it does not burn fossil fuel, I don't like it".


When I worked for Mobil Oil many decades ago, the "abiogenic" or "abiotic" theory (that oil was formed by inorganic means) was popular.

The thought was that the building blocks of the solar system contained enormous quantities of hydrocarbons, such as methane/natural gas. Clearly, the gas giant planets have huge quantities of hydrocarbons. Even Earth has huge quantities of frozen methane (methane hydrate) on the sea floor. Possibly left over from earth's formation.

Over time, heat and pressure, these hydrocarbons would convert to oil, then find a way into porous rock formations, such as shell beds.

Today, this is considered to have been largely debunked and we view oil to be much like coal, organic in nature.

However, it does not fully explain why oil continues to re-fill these shell beds over time. Also, it seems that oil has been found at depths, in non sedimentary rock, where no life ever existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Originally Posted By: Kruse
Here's a "green" energy supply that I find laughable:
My in-laws live in Texas and my wife and I often take I35 through southern Oklahoma to get there. The south side of Oklahoma has the Arbuckle Mountain range, a scenic area that has lots of tourist spots, water falls and scenic beauty. At least it USED to have scenic beauty. I went through there a few months ago and they have cut off the peak of just about every tall mountain and have installed a wind turbine on each one.
I really feel sorry for the people who make their living from tourism, because now the scenic view has been diminished drastically. I think the people of Oklahoma have sold their souls.

No we haven't sold our souls. We're taking advantage of one of the most sustained wind energy states in the US by putting in windmills. Go west on I40 around Weatherford....you think I35 has a bunch. We're trying to get out of the oil business and become a leader in wind power.


Agreed. Iowa has also been taking a leadership position in renewable energy, in particular wind energy for generation electrical power. It is reliable and gives us some of the lowest electrical rates in the country. In another 3 or 4 years nearly 50% of our electricity will be generated by wind power, and Iowa is poised to become an electric exporter to other states via the Rock Island Clean Line.

Another change that is taking place is the use of private wind turbines powering businesses, farms and even some homes. It's not uncommon to see a wind turbine powering a farm, and it's quite effective and reliable.
 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-09/ta...-ruined/7232392

Cable repairs now hoped for Mid May (there's speculation that the cable owner is on the verge of bankruptcy also).

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-07/hydro-tasmania-in-uncharted-territory/7227494

Dam levels down to 15.5%.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-07/diesel-generators-being-turned-on-because-of/7226648

Diesel generators being switched on en masse.

Wholesale prices in Tasmania are running around $200-$250/MWh at the current time.
 
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