Ford guys let me know what you think. TIA

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It figures!

Would you clean mine via the line again, or double up on the Red Line FI cleaner, 2 bottles in the smaller tank? Or 2 bottles in the bigger tank?

I have the tool, just don't remember how to do it. My mechanic buddy cleaned these about a month ago.

Thanks
 
Trying to avoid that, the E series vans are a PIA to work on. But it looks like that's where this is headed.

Thanks!
 
I think surging is caused by a lean condition. You said everything was checked out but maybe something wasn't checked out good or overlooked? Have you checked the EGR to make sure it's not leaking at idle? It would be nice if you could run an injector balance test and injector coil test, then there'd be no guess work whether the injectors are bad and which ones.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think surging is caused by a lean condition. You said everything was checked out but maybe something wasn't checked out good or overlooked? Have you checked the EGR to make sure it's not leaking at idle? It would be nice if you could run an injector balance test and injector coil test, then there'd be no guess work whether the injectors are bad and which ones.


Lean or Rich for EEC-IV. The surge is caused by the swing in the correction; going from one extreme to the other.

It is the Achilles heel of EEC-IV. The MAF-equipped models were less prone to this. Hence the reason (of many) that my Townie is now MAF.
 
The EGR is Ford Motorcraft part ~ 1 year old, and has no leaks. The position sensor is fairly new as well. I've been at this problem for a while with no luck. I've paid 2 different mechanics $85 an hour to diagnose the problem and have drawn blanks from both of them. Another member posted a while back about a similar problem, only he is on the other side of the US. Seems this is something that a lot of us older Ford guys end up living with. I don't like to give up, but I am really coming to the end of the line here.

Thanks for the replies.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think surging is caused by a lean condition. You said everything was checked out but maybe something wasn't checked out good or overlooked? Have you checked the EGR to make sure it's not leaking at idle? It would be nice if you could run an injector balance test and injector coil test, then there'd be no guess work whether the injectors are bad and which ones.


Lean or Rich for EEC-IV. The surge is caused by the swing in the correction; going from one extreme to the other.

It is the Achilles heel of EEC-IV. The MAF-equipped models were less prone to this. Hence the reason (of many) that my Townie is now MAF.


That's probably all true but an engine will surge if the mixture's lean whether there is a fuel correction or not. The surge is happening in the first place because of a lean condition.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
The EGR is Ford Motorcraft part ~ 1 year old, and has no leaks. The position sensor is fairly new as well. I've been at this problem for a while with no luck. I've paid 2 different mechanics $85 an hour to diagnose the problem and have drawn blanks from both of them. Another member posted a while back about a similar problem, only he is on the other side of the US. Seems this is something that a lot of us older Ford guys end up living with. I don't like to give up, but I am really coming to the end of the line here.

Thanks for the replies.


Well this could all be the injectors of course. Sometimes they can't get cleaned on the car. That's why I always run Teir II gas. Older Fords probably need an updated PROM or might be susceptible to surging. Have you checked that the O2 sensor is switching fast? Maybe you could check the base ignition timing. Timing can effect things like this. Other than that I guess the injectors might be suspected. Maybe try some top engine cleaner although FI engines don't usually gum up the valves bad, but I'm thinking a straight 6 is an exception to that though.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think surging is caused by a lean condition. You said everything was checked out but maybe something wasn't checked out good or overlooked? Have you checked the EGR to make sure it's not leaking at idle? It would be nice if you could run an injector balance test and injector coil test, then there'd be no guess work whether the injectors are bad and which ones.


Lean or Rich for EEC-IV. The surge is caused by the swing in the correction; going from one extreme to the other.

It is the Achilles heel of EEC-IV. The MAF-equipped models were less prone to this. Hence the reason (of many) that my Townie is now MAF.


That's probably all true but an engine will surge if the mixture's lean whether there is a fuel correction or not. The surge is happening in the first place because of a lean condition.


Or a rich condition. I've owned 5 302's as well as a 300 I6. Two of them (302's) have had the exact same symptom, but polar opposite problems.

This is COMMON with EEC-IV, especially to the Mustang community, as we tend not to leave things stock.....

To extrapolate:

I know where you are going with the lean thing and surging (I've experienced it) but a rich condition (or PERCEIVED rich condition... that part is KEY) can also cause the EXACT same symptoms.

My Mustang was lean (not really), or rather, the O2 sensors thought the engine was lean. This led to hot-start surging. The engine had no vacuum leaks. A new set of O2's cured the problem.

My Townie, when it was still SD, because it was cammed, was not pulling enough vacuum to keep the MAP sensor happy. It was rich (actually rich) and would behave in much the same manner. On a cold start, it was often fine. On a hot start, where the ECT was reading a valid temp and the O2's were still warm, the EEC would start looking for a signal right away, see rich, and start pulling fuel, and she would surge..... Often to the point that she died. If you blipped the gas to bring it out of "idle seek" mode, it would clear up.
 
Now all I have to do is figure out why I have a lean condition.

More info as I think back.

Early on in this adventure I was experiencing difficulties with cold starts. It would start and stall about 5-6 times when the engine was cold. After the High pressure cleaning of the injectors it would start then stall once. Now it starts on the first try. About a few weeks after what I thought was everything fine and dandy, it developed the issue with the surge upon starting an engine that is warmed up and shut off for about 10 minutes. So the injector cleaning did something along with the Red Line FI cleaner. Now the annoying surge. If I start it cold, and wait for the idle to come down to 1000 rpms and turn on the AC it will surge, if it reaches normal temps and I turn the AC on its fine.

This is trouble shooting the old fashion way. The computer says everything is just fine.

Thanks again!
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
The EGR is Ford Motorcraft part ~ 1 year old, and has no leaks. The position sensor is fairly new as well. I've been at this problem for a while with no luck. I've paid 2 different mechanics $85 an hour to diagnose the problem and have drawn blanks from both of them. Another member posted a while back about a similar problem, only he is on the other side of the US. Seems this is something that a lot of us older Ford guys end up living with. I don't like to give up, but I am really coming to the end of the line here.

Thanks for the replies.


Well this could all be the injectors of course. Sometimes they can't get cleaned on the car. That's why I always run Teir II gas. Older Fords probably need an updated PROM or might be susceptible to surging. Have you checked that the O2 sensor is switching fast? Maybe you could check the base ignition timing. Timing can effect things like this. Other than that I guess the injectors might be suspected. Maybe try some top engine cleaner although FI engines don't usually gum up the valves bad, but I'm thinking a straight 6 is an exception to that though.


Base timing should be 10 degrees.

Agreed on checking the O2's.

To the OP: A quick way to check the O2's: Unplug them. If the truck doesn't surge, they are likely the culprit. This forces the engine to run out of base table.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think surging is caused by a lean condition. You said everything was checked out but maybe something wasn't checked out good or overlooked? Have you checked the EGR to make sure it's not leaking at idle? It would be nice if you could run an injector balance test and injector coil test, then there'd be no guess work whether the injectors are bad and which ones.


Lean or Rich for EEC-IV. The surge is caused by the swing in the correction; going from one extreme to the other.

It is the Achilles heel of EEC-IV. The MAF-equipped models were less prone to this. Hence the reason (of many) that my Townie is now MAF.


That's probably all true but an engine will surge if the mixture's lean whether there is a fuel correction or not. The surge is happening in the first place because of a lean condition.


Or a rich condition. I've owned 5 302's as well as a 300 I6. Two of them (302's) have had the exact same symptom, but polar opposite problems.

This is COMMON with EEC-IV, especially to the Mustang community, as we tend not to leave things stock.....

To extrapolate:

I know where you are going with the lean thing and surging (I've experienced it) but a rich condition (or PERCEIVED rich condition... that part is KEY) can also cause the EXACT same symptoms.

My Mustang was lean (not really), or rather, the O2 sensors thought the engine was lean. This led to hot-start surging. The engine had no vacuum leaks. A new set of O2's cured the problem.

My Townie, when it was still SD, because it was cammed, was not pulling enough vacuum to keep the MAP sensor happy. It was rich (actually rich) and would behave in much the same manner. On a cold start, it was often fine. On a hot start, where the ECT was reading a valid temp and the O2's were still warm, the EEC would start looking for a signal right away, see rich, and start pulling fuel, and she would surge..... Often to the point that she died. If you blipped the gas to bring it out of "idle seek" mode, it would clear up.


What you're saying is totally valid. I'm just saying in general a lean condition can cause engine surging in its own right. In Delmarpaint's case like he said he just needs to find what is causing the lean condition in the first place. Seems like the EEC IV had it's flaws and are prone to surging. I really think GM had the best CCC and was the model for OBDII, but that's another topic really.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Now all I have to do is figure out why I have a lean condition.

More info as I think back.

Early on in this adventure I was experiencing difficulties with cold starts. It would start and stall about 5-6 times when the engine was cold. After the High pressure cleaning of the injectors it would start then stall once. Now it starts on the first try. About a few weeks after what I thought was everything fine and dandy, it developed the issue with the surge upon starting an engine that is warmed up and shut off for about 10 minutes. So the injector cleaning did something along with the Red Line FI cleaner. Now the annoying surge. If I start it cold, and wait for the idle to come down to 1000 rpms and turn on the AC it will surge, if it reaches normal temps and I turn the AC on its fine.

This is trouble shooting the old fashion way. The computer says everything is just fine.

Thanks again!


But check your injectors' resistance.
 
Thanks OVERK1LL, I don't want to come across as a know it all, please understand that, I don't know it all. But I did that too, and it ran the same. What makes me feel a little better is I left two different mechanics scratching their heads. My wallet is lighter and I still have the problem.

I also put the spacer plate under the IAC to see if that would do anything, the hole that the IAC sits on was clean as a bell and so was the IAC. The spacer plate didn't do anything either.

Which brings me to this question. Can I close both allen screws all the way in on that spacer plate, then bring just one out until I get a perfect idle? I already have a perfect idle when I'm not surging, so I thought I'd toss this out for discussion.
 
mechanicx: I was agreeing with you, that's why I said "I know where you are going with the lean thing and surging".
grin2.gif


I will note that this is really only an issue with the SD EEC-IV; many of which were batch-fire.

The Mustang was SD only from 86 to 88, and was SEFI. 89-93 they were MAF, and arguably the best factory SEFI setup available. With a host of aftermarket support from a variety of companies, and being completely programmable via MOATS, TwEECer, SCT and the like. And VERY little in the way of emissions stuff to get in the way. It has been a popular choice for hotrodders of all makes to use on V8's and there are distributors to adapt TFI to both Mopar and GM engines because of this.

The SD version has its limitations however and the "tuning circle of surge" as I like to call it is one of them. There is always a culprit. But between the EEC telling you everything is in range (when it may actually not be.... We are dealing with 80's stuff here) and Ford's love for vacuum lines..... It can be a complete nightmare.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Thanks OVERK1LL, I don't want to come across as a know it all, please understand that, I don't know it all. But I did that too, and it ran the same. What makes me feel a little better is I left two different mechanics scratching their heads. My wallet is lighter and I still have the problem.

I also put the spacer plate under the IAC to see if that would do anything, the hole that the IAC sits on was clean as a bell and so was the IAC. The spacer plate didn't do anything either.

Which brings me to this question. Can I close both allen screws all the way in on that spacer plate, then bring just one out until I get a perfect idle? I already have a perfect idle when I'm not surging, so I thought I'd toss this out for discussion.


What is the base idle set at? I THINK we went through this before, but please refresh my memory.

Also, it is excellent that you've tested the O2's, you don't sound like a know-it-all at all. You've done some solid troubleshooting on a system that is not all that fun to troubleshoot.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
mechanicx: I was agreeing with you, that's why I said "I know where you are going with the lean thing and surging".
grin2.gif


I will note that this is really only an issue with the SD EEC-IV; many of which were batch-fire.

The Mustang was SD only from 86 to 88, and was SEFI. 89-93 they were MAF, and arguably the best factory SEFI setup available. With a host of aftermarket support from a variety of companies, and being completely programmable via MOATS, TwEECer, SCT and the like. And VERY little in the way of emissions stuff to get in the way. It has been a popular choice for hotrodders of all makes to use on V8's and there are distributors to adapt TFI to both Mopar and GM engines because of this.

The SD version has its limitations however and the "tuning circle of surge" as I like to call it is one of them. There is always a culprit. But between the EEC telling you everything is in range (when it may actually not be.... We are dealing with 80's stuff here) and Ford's love for vacuum lines..... It can be a complete nightmare.


What's funny GM TPI on the Camaro while batchfire was MAF until 90 and then they switched to SD until I'm not sure '93 or maybe until OBDII. The Ford had SEFI I'll give them that, but GM never really had problems with batchfire combined with SD combined with a non-heated O2 sensor. Plus GM used plastic vaccum hoses that rarely leaked. Their TFI wasn't as good and reliable as the GM trigger and module, not to mention GM's crank sensor triggered DIS. Ford's probably are slighly more programmable/mod-able I'll give them that, but I totally agree their FI system was harder to work on. What with their telling you to use a breakout box, sometimes no check engine light, rubber vacuum hoses etc. I think Ford did a good job on their later Ignition systems and EEC V though.

PS: Demarpaint don't me to highjack your thread or take it on a tangent, but I think there's not much more that could be suggested for your surge at this point.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Darn, those are 14's. If it had 19's, you could score a 4-hole set from a Modular 'Vic at the wreckers. They have a much better spray pattern.


Didn't the 1.9L and the 2.0L Escort use #14 injectors?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


What is the base idle set at? I THINK we went through this before, but please refresh my memory.

Also, it is excellent that you've tested the O2's, you don't sound like a know-it-all at all. You've done some solid troubleshooting on a system that is not all that fun to troubleshoot.


The base idle is about 750 rpms it is a 5 speed stick. The mechanic was fooling with it and had it close to 1000 rpms and I was TWISTED. I can't get it any lower than about 700, but was thinking since the spacer plate is on there I could close both allen screws and work the idle from there. At this point I am grabbing at straws.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx


PS: Demarpaint don't me to highjack your thread or take it on a tangent, but I think there's not much more that could be suggested for your surge at this point.


I was told this by two mechanics already. I love a challenge guys, and I appreciate the discussion! I have a feeling we might just cure this!
 
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